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Star Wars 7 vs Star Trek into Darkness

Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by MineOwnKing, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. MineOwnKing

    MineOwnKing Maester

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    Star Wars VII vs Star Trek into Darkness.

    I'm interested in what forum members see as strengths and weaknesses of both the movies and for those reasons alone, versus box office sales, weigh in pound for pound as a better story from the perspective of writer vs fan.

    My vote is for Star Trek. I thought it was more interesting and complex. :eek:
     
  2. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I thought Into Darkness's complexity was as much a weakness as it was a strength. It created loopholes that really stood out to me.

    In Star Wars 7 I had a few moments where watching the characters take action I thought, "What? They're doing this kind of stuff already?" That was 90% of my criticisms, and I felt them mildly for a grand total of 30 seconds of screen time, all of it during the "fun and games" part of the film where the tension is also pretty light. That is, my criticisms may sound significant when voiced out loud, but they didn't really detract from the film.

    With Into Darkness, my issues were with the plotting, and I felt them during key moments of the movie, including the resolution. Despite all the good stuff that might on the face of it be argued as "better," Into Darkness just didn't deliver at the moments in the film where it needed to.

    The Force Awakens was fun that built up into some emotional moments. Into Darkness was intensity that built up into an eye roll.
     
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  3. Ophiucha

    Ophiucha Auror

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    Despite the fact that I love Star Trek and don't really like Star Wars... I utterly loathed Into Darkness and found a lot of elements of Episode VII to be charming, even if it wasn't really my thing.

    SW7 had some great new characters, used the old cast members pretty well (I didn't like Han Solo much, but other than him they were great), had an atmosphere very reminiscent of the old series while improving upon more dated elements, and just looked and sounded great in general. STID was a boring action flick with 0% of the charm or themes of the TOS, a largely poor cast (especially Benedict Cumberbatch) with an almost eye-roll inducing scene with old!Spock, and just... nothing much going for it beyond some very nice looking explosions and a couple of decent action scenes. But I think Star Wars had better action, too, so I don't think it even gets ahead in that.
     
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  4. Devouring Wolf

    Devouring Wolf Sage

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    My vote goes to Star Wars. I should note I'm probably a bigger Star Wars fan than a Star Trek fan if only because I grew up with Star Wars and was only watched the original Star Trek episodes about a year ago (although I did see the movies) Star Wars shaped my childhood in a way Star Trek didn't.

    That being said, I went into SW7 with much lower expectations than when I went to see Into Darkness because the Star Wars Prequels were such a disappointment I really wasn't expecting episode VII to be any good. To me SW7 was too fast paced (I tend to like slower movies and I really felt all the characters, despite having the potential to be very compelling could've benefited from some character development scenes) while Into Darkness definitely had more "breather" moments but I don't feel like they were utilized as much as they could be. I also think SW7 had much better humor.

    Also I'm no feminist, but that blond girl in Into Darkness was obviously just there to be eye candy which was pretty annoying. I mean, I get its part of Star Trek that Kirk is a bit of a womanizer, but I've seen James Bond movies where the girl does more. Rey on the other hand was a really great character.

    On the other hand, you could argue that Into Darkness had a more inspired, if somewhat confusing (at least to me) plot. SW7 had a lot in common with A New Hope plot wise. Personally I think this was necessary after the failure of the prequels, but nonetheless it does retread old territory whereas Into Darkness uses familiar characters but creates a new plot, making it if not a better standalone then a better squeal.

    Star Wars VII wasn't particularly complex, I'll admit, but then that's also not what I expect from Star Wars. The original Star Wars was just the "farm boy has special powers and saves the world" plot in space, but that's only bad if done poorly and they do it extremely well. Into Darkness had a more complex plot that kept me guessing, but because the humor missed its mark most of the time (at least for me) and I couldn't find myself able to care about these characters. I knew I should because I loved the originals, but if judging the film independent of the source material the characterization felt poor to me.

    Okay I've rambled enough. Peace.
     
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  5. MineOwnKing

    MineOwnKing Maester

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    Thanks to everyone for these great comments.

    Analyzing both films from a writer's perspective is certainly challenging. I was thinking less review wise and more craft wise.

    I think Star Wars is meant to be more serious yet enjoyable for both genders and all ages.

    Star Trek has always used sex to sell. Showing Dr. Carol Marcus in her undies was certainly pushing the envelope but I've come to expect and enjoy that in modern Sci-Fi.

    Star Trek is also more slapstick and I love the way they blend it into the more serious scenes. The character Scotty has always been played very silly and I think Simon Pegg is perfect for the part.

    Looking at it as pure craft though, I would love to have an opening for a novel such as Into Darkness. I also found the scene with the father saving his sick daughter very moving.

    Presentation aside, I find the Star Trek script to be better written. The clichés in Star Wars would never pass mustard in a modern Fantasy novel.

    The Star Wars dialogue is improving though. I swear if I hear "Search you feelings" one more time, I'll scream.
     
  6. FifthView

    FifthView Istar

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    Me too, pretty much. That hit-ya-over-the-head parallelism with the original Wrath of Khan, near the end, was horrible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  7. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    For the sake of discussion, why was the hit-ya-over-the-head parallelism in TFA any better? I agree with the notion that they needed to ground it after the prequels, but I think there's got to be more to why it worked in one movie and not the other.
     
  8. FifthView

    FifthView Istar

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    For the sake of full disclosure....I haven't watched TFA yet. :D I was just commenting on Into Darkness because it's something that irritated me greatly about that movie. I love the Star Trek movie before that; it was the best Star Trek movie ever made, in my opinion. But Spock's death/sacrifice was always so iconic for me, the best scene and most emotional scene in any of the original Star Trek movies, the parallel in Into Darkness seemed like an extremely cheap shot. A total deficit of creativity, quackery.
     
  9. Sheilawisz

    Sheilawisz Queen of Titania Moderator

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    I enjoyed Star Trek Into Darkness for the most part. It's a decent and entertaining movie, even though it's not exactly what a Star Trek film should be. The space battle and explosions were great, and my favorite part of the movie is when the Vengeance falls and crashes into the city of San Francisco.

    The problem with Into Darkness is that it evokes almost nothing of the classic feel of the Star Trek universe.

    There are many Star Trek fans that dislike Into Darkness because of that reason, like Ophiucha has explained before. These new re-imagined ST movies feel more like Star Wars stuff, which is good in some ways but very bad in others because they are trying to create a completely new thing.

    I think that the same factor is what ruined the Star Wars prequels for most fans: Episodes 1-3 lacked the classic feel of the Star Wars original trilogy, especially because they offered a highly stylish and digital presentation instead of the more physical style that is seen in episodes Four to Six.

    The new SW film The Force Awakens is being incredibly successful because it has brought back that classic Star Wars atmosphere. It's exactly what the Fans were hoping for, and it's a very cool movie as well despite the fact that it's an obvious remake of A New Hope.

    Into Darkness suffers from similarities to the classic The Wrath of Khan, but at least it's not the same cat wearing a different sweater...
     
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  10. FifthView

    FifthView Istar

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    Another point about Into Darkness: The world is supposed to be an altered timeline, in which things happen differently than they did in the previous timeline. So I was perfectly fine with the crew having an encounter with Khan—although, given the butterfly effect of altering major features of a timeline, I could as easily have imagined that Kirk & Co. would not have run into Khan in this timeline. Then again, the fact that Khan's nature means he would have challenged Star Fleet at some point, this naturally brings him into conflict w/ the Enterprise crew.

    But the oh-so-neat and exact parallels at the end of the movie were like completing a Perfect Circle, or bending the new timeline back toward the first. It seemed like an absolutely artificial, mechanical addition, and not at all organic.

    It's possible to imagine that, because these are the same characters, whatever is innate in them could force some recurrences in a new timeline or bend some encounters down similar paths. (Although I'm fine with some changes in characterization, e.g. Spock being shown to be more emotional in the new timeline. It's a nature vs nurture thing.) So if Abrams had shown Spock sacrificing himself again, I might have bought that. However, if he wanted to use parallelism, a better and more subtle way to have done it would have Spock not sacrificing himself in exactly the same type of situation—a toxic environment aboard-ship in which some part of the ship needs repairing. That was a too-neat double-whammy for me. What are the odds? But no, having Kirk do it instead of Spock was squaring the circle, or making Kirk "pay back" the old timeline Spock for his sacrifice, so they are now even. (For us viewers.)

    Edit: I'd written something confusing, so edited it. The old timeline Spock, who is now in this new timeline, did in fact go through the sacrifice. But the new timeline Spock never did. Yet, anyway. So this whole balancing of the scales meta is a bit muddled. But that's rather irrelevant because the whole farce was mechanical and even world-breaking for me as a viewer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
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  11. MineOwnKing

    MineOwnKing Maester

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    I think this is what turns me on to the new movies.

    The inside of the ships look like real star ships.

    In the old movies it looked like they filmed in a hotel.

    In the television series with Captain Picard, it looked like the inside of a nursing home or even an 80's fashion nightmare.

    Now everything looks crisp and modern.

    Patrick Stewart will always be my favorite captain.
     
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