BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
If the pendulum swinging one way is bad, I feel that the desire to keep it swinging the opposite direction is just as bad.
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If the pendulum swinging one way is bad, I feel that the desire to keep it swinging the opposite direction is just as bad.
Mindfire
Istar
Maybe they have, but I feel like you might have overcorrected in your response; you keep coming off as "I don't care about this particular issue and I don't have to." I'm pretty sure that's not how you actually feel, but that's what it sounds like to me.
Today's Sinfest is especially apropos of this thread: Sinfest
I don't get the joke.
Yes. I guess what I'm seeing in the thread is a request for writers to think about these things. Not someone saying "you have to change this specific character right here to one I want to see." I don't have a problem with people asking to be better represented in writing, movies, and so on. I think there are a lot of good reasons they should be. But I'm not going to support a law that mandates it or anything. People will still be able to write what they want. Merely being criticized by one group or another doesn't take away the author's right to write their own story in the way they see fit.
I've completely missed whatever it is that's going on in this 27 page thread, but I think you've got to put the storytelling above the outside pressures and one's predispositions in order to write the characters that help to enhance the story. It doesn't make sense to include token out-of-place minorities in some settings. It doesn't make sense to exclude the wide-scale diversity you would see in many other settings.
It also doesn't make sense to tell other people to take stories you know nothing about in specific directions, or to try and negatively classify someone else's mentality.
We're not here to be activists. We're here to tell stories. Let's focus on that.
One thing I will say, though, to try and add to the conversation, is that sometimes I find in the stories I'm reading that too often, when you include some of these characters, they can kind of be story-stealers. As someone told me once, there's no mention of camels in the 1,001 Arabian Nights because it's so heavily ingrained into their culture that camels are boring to them. But when westerners write a similar story, they detail every camel down to the saddle bags. I feel like something similar happens when non-minorities write about minorities. I'm not referring to stereotyping. I mean that the minority aspects become weighty talking points and subplot tumors that can sometimes end up being a detraction from the story as a whole. Just something to consider.
Lastly, to anyone who thinks there should be more minority heroes in our great fantasy stories, it seems to me that the only thing to really do about it is to go out and write one. You're not going to get an authentic character by pressuring someone else to do it if they don't want to.
((wow, that got ninja'ed by like 16 posts))
It also doesn't make sense to tell other people to take stories you know nothing about in specific directions, or to try and negatively classify someone else's mentality.
We're not here to be activists. We're here to tell stories. Let's focus on that.
One thing I will say, though, to try and add to the conversation, is that sometimes I find in the stories I'm reading that too often, when you include some of these characters, they can kind of be story-stealers. As someone told me once, there's no mention of camels in the 1,001 Arabian Nights because it's so heavily ingrained into their culture that camels are boring to them. But when westerners write a similar story, they detail every camel down to the saddle bags. I feel like something similar happens when non-minorities write about minorities. I'm not referring to stereotyping. I mean that the minority aspects become weighty talking points and subplot tumors that can sometimes end up being a detraction from the story as a whole. Just something to consider.
Lastly, to anyone who thinks there should be more minority heroes in our great fantasy stories, it seems to me that the only thing to really do about it is to go out and write one. You're not going to get an authentic character by pressuring someone else to do it if they don't want to.
((wow, that got ninja'ed by like 16 posts))
She does what she wants. Period.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
I'm having trouble parsing this. No one is *what?*
Are you seriously saying that because you haven't experienced this, it can't possibly be true? Seriously? So all the women who do talk about how they feel disregarded and disrespected solely because of their gender are, what... Delusional? Lying? Whiners? Isn't it possible that maybe (at least some of them) are telling the truth about their experiences? Isn't it possible that you have blinders on, because you're not part of that group?
Yeah. But once it has started in one direction, it has to swing back the other way to get back to the middle.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
What's with all the straw men today? Nobody (except a few extremist kooks) is suggesting that men be put in the position women are now. What they (we!) are asking for is for the pendulum to be in the middle, where it should be.
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
And I've said many times that I do not tailor my works to try to please any one audience. In the long run, I believe that being true to the stories I want to tell will lead to much more success than trying to please anyone.
I don't see this as an argument for the legitimacy of your cause.
Again, what does this have to do with the legitimacy of your cause?
Another point on which we're never going to agree...
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
The joke is that from the POV of where women are now, "utopia" is simply being able to go walk down the street alone at night without undue fear of being harassed or assaulted. As a man, I can go do that without undue fear. Women, for the most part, can't. I walk three blocks to the gym around 10pm some nights, and I'm never concerned about being attacked. I know it's possible it might happen anyway, but I also know it's very unlikely, so it doesn't bother me any more than any other unlikely danger.
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
I've said multiple times that I do feel that certain members are advocating a call to action that goes beyond "think about your writing."
Maybe I'm reading stuff into it, but I've prefaced most of my arguments with the caveat that it's the judgment that action is mandated that I'm most against.
If I look at my writing and think, "I feel comfortable with how I've portrayed the characters," I don't feel that this test has a whole lot of value.
I think this thread is getting too heavily away from storytelling into gender politics. I'm going to lock this thread to consult with other moderators.
Please be patient. Regardless, take a breather, everybody.
Please be patient. Regardless, take a breather, everybody.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that gender equality is the most important issue in the world. Maybe they have; if you can quote one person saying it, that would be helpful. Otherwise, this is a straw man.
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