Thoughts on speech tags?

[Penpilot]

Yeah, they're called 'Said Bookisms'. Here are a couple of links to articles discussing them. The second link is just basically examples. I included it because it has an over the top example that make me childishly giggle whenever I think of it.

"Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy" by Jeffrey A. Carver

Said Bookism - Television Tropes & Idioms

 

[Chilari]

TV tropes? Noooooooo.......... My evening is ruined.

 

[Kevlar]

TV tropes? Noooooooo.......... My evening is ruined.

I know the feeling, I'm fighting the temptation right now. Penpilot you are cruel and sadistic...

 

[Caged Maiden]

Oh man this is a really difficult subject. When I read the tags from Twilight on that one link I laughed. Pages full of snippets, all using the words muttered, sighed, shouted, etc. But really, when I'm writing, it's hard to get it right (maybe not as hard as I'm trying to get it right).

Right now, I'm working really hard to bring one of my novels (written in 2009) up to a professional standard, and it is just so hard to go back and edit all these little things out. I think it was actually better before I began tampering with it. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

[ThinkerX]

Right now, I'm working really hard to bring one of my novels (written in 2009) up to a professional standard, and it is just so hard to go back and edit all these little things out. I think it was actually better before I began tampering with it. Does anyone else feel this way?

I am in the process of rewriting one of my works. The original version featured a *lot* of pointless wandering and fighting which is getting chopped out around AND included a character who is getting dropped in the rewrite. So I look and 'ok, this section here has to go' - but as I'm reading it prior to cutting I'm also going 'dang, some of this is pretty good. I wish I didn't have to cut it.'

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I keep a file called "Stuff I didn't want to cut".

Never know when that could spark another tale or be used yet in some fashion.

 

[ThinkerX]

I keep a file called "Stuff I didn't want to cut".

Never know when that could spark another tale or be used yet in some fashion.

Oh...I'm keeping a copy of the entire original novella. Problem is, most of the stuff slated for the ax is so specific to that story - or at least that setting - that reusing it elsewhere will be difficult. I do have a notion of reusing the setting with different characters, but no real idea as to plot yet.

I also keep what I call (title)Work files for each story, which includes the best of what didn't fit.

 

[BWFoster78]

Oh man this is a really difficult subject. When I read the tags from Twilight on that one link I laughed. Pages full of snippets, all using the words muttered, sighed, shouted, etc. But really, when I'm writing, it's hard to get it right (maybe not as hard as I'm trying to get it right).

Right now, I'm working really hard to bring one of my novels (written in 2009) up to a professional standard, and it is just so hard to go back and edit all these little things out. I think it was actually better before I began tampering with it. Does anyone else feel this way?

It sounds like the problem is that you're not convinced it's the right thing to do. Regardless of the rule, you have to use your best judgment. If you're unsure about something, you should really think about it and study the alternatives until you are completely convinced.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

TV tropes? Noooooooo.......... My evening is ruined.

I actually blocked tvtropes in my hosts file, so I can't go to it. (reddit, too.) I just ended up spending hours on those sites instead of writing.

Back on topic: how about this for a general guideline for speech tags:

Speech tags (not including "said") are easy to overuse, and can be very distracting. Most readers do not mind the occasional tag, but the more of them you use, the more likely you are to distract the reader. Highly experienced or skilled writers can use more tags before they distract the reader, but new writers are not usually good enough for this. Professional editors and writers are more sensitive to speech tag usage than readers are. Aside from pleasing an editor/publisher, there is rarely any good reason to completely abjure non-"said" speech tags.

"Said" itself only needs to be used to clarify who is speaking (e.g. if there has been a lot of dialogue in a row and it might be easy for someone to lose track of who's talking), or sometimes to help with the flow of the speech (it's a good way to insert a conceptual pause in dialogue). There are other ways to indicate who's speaking, or even convey the kinds of things (e.g. mood) that speech tags usually convey, without using speech tags.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Honestly, I grow weary of hearing about what famous authors can do that unpublished writers can't. If a variety of speech tags are seen in classic literature and the works of famous contemporary authors, then to emulate that is NOT breaking a rule!

I understand it takes a certain skill to use speech tags other than the supposedly invisible "said," but I think the real issue is how you use speech tags. In Chilari's example, it's less taxing on the reader to use natural word choice in the dialogue and choose demanded/pondered over asked so in one word you can convey the tone of the question. That's not going to cause a reader to stumble.

What makes speech tags come off as amateur is when a writer tries to look "writerly" and have the sergeant bark orders and the pikemen growl defiantly and the captain roar to shut everyone up.

Speech tags used properly won't hinder the reader. If they did, I'd stumble over most of the short stories and novels I read with my students.


(I understand that if you're trying to please an editor, everything I just said is meaningless... but if you're self-publishing, go with what works. I think most successful authors--or at least the one that I've talked to--would tell you to write the story the way you think is best until the editor tells you to do otherwise.)

 

[The Dark One]

Have to say I've been a bit bemused by this thread. I do stick mostly to said, plus the other technique I described above, but my main purpose is to avoid distracting the reader from the flow of dialogue (and I do regard my dialogue as one of my strengths).

Having said that, however, I've never heard of a book being rejected because of the wrong tags.

Has anyone else?

 

[JCFarnham]

We've hit upon the nugget here. Whether or not it's easier just to use said, whether or not an editor may hate it, know your reasons. Find out how current English will allow you use these things, and decide if it's right for your book. There is nothing wrong with said, just as there's nothing wrong with demanded and tags like it.

In fact I'd say it's not even a matter of successful authors versus unpublished versus beginners.

- A beginner will never learn for themselves how to use a tool if they don't try it. I don't care in the slightest whether it's easier to go with a generalised "rule" in those cases. I would personallywant to help them understand it proper in the first place so I didn't unknowingly foster the bad habits gained from taking something too seriously.

- A professional with credibility behind their name will get all kinds of leeway a newbie wouldn't and not for any reason other than the publishing houses in question know the author and trust them and their editor to do the right thing for the book and what sells at present. Earning that level of trust doesn't come from erring on the side of caution. To me it comes from first honing your craft and then taking risks and proving to nay-sayers that you can do it.

All I'm trying to do here with this post is motivate okay? There is no "I can't do such and such because of x, y, z and I'm not an acredited author yet", there is only practice, do it well, and get it passed any publisher not because of their preferences but because you did it well. Any editor worth their salt should be able to go "Well, I don't usually like x, but right here? You did it very convincingly so I'll let it slide."

As writers, frankly, we can do what we please, as long as you understand the whys, and understand that when your time comes there may be some what unprofessional head-up-their-own-arse editors who try to rewrite your book how THEY want it to be. It was Brandon Sanderson who said that a good critiquer or editor shouldn't do this, they should work to make the book the best it can be on its own merits, not anyone elses.

To tie it back into the OT. It's all a matter of your own personal style, preferences, and tolerences. Do whatever you think is best in any given context, because there is always a chance that someone will come along and say "Yeah, actually, you've changed my view on that."

This is seemingly a massive contradiction to what I've just said, but most of all, be humble (because I do think you can write by the above code and still be humble).

Some people just have more experience. Thems the breaks.


EDIT: This modern invisible style has taken a lot from that Fowler's style guide. And just think, when was that written? And by whom? And for why? (heh) It's just the in thing and I have no doubt in saying it will change on a whim.