To curse or not to curse?

[Caged Maiden]

True that's a myth, but the term existed in the 1500's as a word for coitus, derived from many sources. Some point to how it came from Germanic dialects, meaning to plough,or even Latin. I think there's no denying the word meant what it means now, and probably in a less vulgar way, but then I can see how certain people choose to omit it from their work. Me personally? I only use it a couple times, in the same way it would have been historically used... as a less than polite way of describing the act itself. What can I say? I write more than a few unsavory types and their language reflects that.

 

[The Dark One]

It's always been an aggessive word - coming from the middle dutch fokken meaning to strike. When it tranferred polysemically to mean coitus and then became an English borrowing (possibly via the large numbers of English and Dutch sailors on vessels of both nationalities in the 1500s) it always meant an aggressive form of coitus.

Interestingly, in the north of England they still occasionally use the word in the original sense; ie: "F*ck him in the head!" means to punch him in the head.

 

[SeverinR]

I think some characters are meant to curse.
If you hack people apart for a living, are you really going to be overly concerned with offending people with language?

 

[Saigonnus]

I can swear in two languages and even though I know the words and what they mean, I tend not to use them unless there is no one but the wifey around. In literature I would think if it fits the characters' personality or the situation it is fine to have the occasional Fahk or Shyte. I have seen many books that had extremely vulgar characters and it didn't really take anything away from the story. Just think about the motivation for it before adding it.

I think it's silly how society has become that way... where even children swear. And yet, they still haven't changed the rules for words allowed to be used on the radio to include them. I really hate censored music and there are just some songs that are better without the censorship.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

@Ireth

I did a lot of research into that before and lots of people think it is either Fornication Under Consent of the King or For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. But many doubt both versions because acronyms weren't used until hundreds of yards later.

This is all speculation of course but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Erica]

Most people swear (sixteen year old girls certainly do. I know, since I was one once) and they always have and they most likely always will (even when they pretend that they don't), so most of my characters do too. When and how they swear is part of the character building as far as I'm concerned.

Seems like the made up swear words in fantasy or science fiction worlds is a a point of contention. Some writers do it and it's always worked for me (I caught myself muttering "Gods rot it" for weeks after reading C.J. Cherryh's Chanur books). I like the way it reminds you that the story is taking place in a different time and or place, so I do have some made up swear words in my world.

Now if I found myself in a situation where an editor was interested in a manuscript I'd written (hey, I can always dream) but he or she wanted the language toned down (or ramped up), I'd say it's pretty negotiable. But it sounds really silly to me to have someone who's supposed to be a hard-bitten drill sergeant saying something like, "shuckydarn" or simply sniffing in disapproval when he's mad.

 

[Kit]

But it sounds really silly to me to have someone who's supposed to be a hard-bitten drill sergeant saying something like, "shuckydarn" or simply sniffing in disapproval when he's mad.

Hee hee... one of my housemates got into the habit of saying "Poo" when he had small kids in the house, and he still does it. Now it's a reliable barometer of just how upset he is. If something rates a "F___" instead of a "Poo", we know to take cover.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

@Ireth

I did a lot of research into that before and lots of people think it is either Fornication Under Consent of the King or For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. But many doubt both versions because acronyms weren't used until hundreds of yards later.

This is all speculation of course but interesting nonetheless.

Actually, acronyms date from (at least) Ancient Roman times. SQPR and INRI, for example.

 

[The Dark One]

Actually, acronyms date from (at least) Ancient Roman times. SQPR and INRI, for example.

Lazy Romans...couldn't be arsed spelling it out in full.

By the way, I 100% guarantee the word in question comes from the middle dutch.

See above.

 

[ElliotWyndwryght]

I think it depends on who you're writing for. When I'm writing a story for an audience the age of my younger brothers I don't put cussing in it, it doesn't belong, honestly if the characters in the story started cursing it would be forced and corny.

However in more recent stories the characters curse and it wouldn't work any other way. Mostly because of the situation they're in and their background. I don't use the 'sh*t' or f-bomb in my writing, mostly because there's no imagination in the words.

So: I think it depends.
The only stand I take on the subject is using God's name in vain. It might not mean anything but Christians get very offended over it and if I'm going to offend someone about something I want it to be something important.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I think it depends on who you're writing for. When I'm writing a story for an audience the age of my younger brothers I don't put cussing in it, it doesn't belong, honestly if the characters in the story started cursing it would be forced and corny.

However in more recent stories the characters curse and it wouldn't work any other way. Mostly because of the situation they're in and their background. I don't use the 'sh*t' or f-bomb in my writing, mostly because there's no imagination in the words.

Perhaps, but there is absolutely no other word or phrase in English that can substitute for an appropriately placed shout of "WHAT THE F***?" Even the basest of terms can be the best choice at times.

 

[Ankari]

Hood's hoary balls!

Steven Erickson uses traditional and coined curses. I like his approach to it.

 

[Jess A]

I think a lot of general fiction and contemporary fiction use swear words here and there. Some are over the top: I hear Martina Cole is quite crass, but I've never read her books - I have the feeling the cursing serves a purpose towards her stories, though.

In historical fantasy fiction, older-styled or world-specific swearing is not too bad. 'Horse shit' 'by all the seven hells' 'by the gods'. Other books say 'such-and-such cursed loudly'. A mix of both can also work.

If your character is by nature quite a potty-mouth, then the use of 'he swore' 'he cursed' 'he uttered something crude under his breath' -- mixed with swear words here and there can't hurt, if you want to be more subtle about it.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'll agree with some others that Erikson does it well. Abercrombie is another that gets by with cursing and it makes the characters feel more believable. I have a lot of cursing in my current WIP, but it's not necessarily going to stay. For a first draft I like to just have characters say whatever I'd think they'd say at the moment. I can always go back and edit them later. Hood's Breath (from Erikson) is one of my favorite made up curses.

 

[Robert Donnell]

There are some people who curse a lot, others who never do, if cursing would be approprate for the character, then cuss.

 

[The Dark One]

I think it depends on who you're writing for. When I'm writing a story for an audience the age of my younger brothers I don't put cussing in it, it doesn't belong, honestly if the characters in the story started cursing it would be forced and corny.

However in more recent stories the characters curse and it wouldn't work any other way. Mostly because of the situation they're in and their background. I don't use the 'sh*t' or f-bomb in my writing, mostly because there's no imagination in the words.

So: I think it depends.
The only stand I take on the subject is using God's name in vain. It might not mean anything but Christians get very offended over it and if I'm going to offend someone about something I want it to be something important.

How much imagination is there in any word? None, I would suggest. It's how you put them together that manifests imagination.

As for Christians, how many serious Christians read fantasy? Surely the whole positing of alternative realities and myth systems would be highly offensive to someone who had put all their cosmology eggs in the Christian basket. Swearing and blasphemy would be the least of their worries.

 

[Ireth]

As for Christians, how many serious Christians read fantasy?

*raises hand* I'm both a Christian and a fantasy enthusiast, as are several of my friends. I regularly read books with characters or worlds whose belief systems are radically different from mine -- see for example Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, which involve multiple gods and goddesses, none of whom are the God I worship. I also enjoy reading about the old non-Christian belief systems of this world, like Greek, Norse, and Celtic. Many of my own characters conform to belief systems or ways of life that my own religion objects to: pagans, homosexuals and bisexuals, characters who engage in sexual relationships outside of marriage... you get the idea. If I only wanted to read (and write) about people of my own faith all the time, I'd stick with the New Testament and scholarly essays for my college courses.

EDIT: Apologies for threadjacking. I think this specific discussion should be continued elsewhere if people are willing.

 

[Ophiucha]

Indeed. I'm personally an atheist, but given that most of the Western world is Christian, and most published literature - fantasy or otherwise - is published in the Western world, I think it's safe to assume that Christians do, in fact, read fantasy. And, further, in spite of the loud-mouthed ones who burn copies of Harry Potter, I wouldn't assume even a very fundamentalist Christian is against the genre, exactly. I'm sure many of them enjoy The Chronicles of Narnia. There are very, very few people who are any more against the concept of fantasy as they are fiction - afterall, what is a story of Jane and Jack falling in love except about two people I completely made up, just as one may make up Westeros, having a shag after prom? - and frankly, they are too small in number to really concern yourself with.

As for the few who might mind a few f*cks being dropped, let's be honest, these are often the same people who have problems with multiple gods and women in lead roles. There's a market for stories about young, proper Christian boys with good manners saving the world, and there's a market for stories about foul-mouthed single mothers saving the world, too. Which goes back to most of the arguments in the thread: who are you writing this story for?

 

[The Dark One]

Indeed. I'm personally an atheist, but given that most of the Western world is Christian, and most published literature - fantasy or otherwise - is published in the Western world, I think it's safe to assume that Christians do, in fact, read fantasy. And, further, in spite of the loud-mouthed ones who burn copies of Harry Potter, I wouldn't assume even a very fundamentalist Christian is against the genre, exactly. I'm sure many of them enjoy The Chronicles of Narnia. There are very, very few people who are any more against the concept of fantasy as they are fiction - afterall, what is a story of Jane and Jack falling in love except about two people I completely made up, just as one may make up Westeros, having a shag after prom? - and frankly, they are too small in number to really concern yourself with.

As for the few who might mind a few f*cks being dropped, let's be honest, these are often the same people who have problems with multiple gods and women in lead roles. There's a market for stories about young, proper Christian boys with good manners saving the world, and there's a market for stories about foul-mouthed single mothers saving the world, too. Which goes back to most of the arguments in the thread: who are you writing this story for?

Is it? Certainly the legal system of the western world is judeo-christian based but can you really say most of the western world is christian? Still? The religious right gets louder and louder (and more politically mobilised) but their per capita numbers are shrinking in most Anglo-Saxon societies. The most recent Australian census established that only around 50% believed in god and only a proportion of those are christian. I daresay it comes down to who you mix with, but I personally know hardly anyone who is (what I would call) a committed practising christian, and not many more who would call themselves believers in god, even a vague amorphous non-denominational god.

I guess this discussion ought to go on another thread but it's likely to be very contentious.

 

[Philip Overby]

Let's keep this discussion on topic and not delve into religious beliefs. Thanks!