Too Early for Inciting Incident?

[Benjamin Clayborne]

You can't have an inciting incident in chapter 3.

Says who? If I have a story with the inciting incident at the very start, and then I add a backstory prologue before it, is it somehow no longer an inciting incident, even though the incident hasn't changed? That doesn't make any sense.

Give me a definition of the term "inciting incident" that would be incompatible with such an incident happening in chapter 3 of a book. In my understanding, the inciting incident is the event in the story that breaks the hero out of his normal world and sets the plot in motion.

What you're describing is another function altogether - it's not even the Call to Adventure.

That's not very helpful. If it's not the II or CTA then what is it? This kid's normal world is boring suburbia, and then werewolves kill his parents. That sure sounds like an incident which incites our hero into action.

Inciting Incident vs Call to Adventure is explained in this youtube video: Inciting Incident vs Call To Adventure - Kal Bashir, 2000+ Stage Hero's Journey - YouTube

That was one of the most vague things I've ever seen. He sure likes to assume that the viewer already agrees with his assessment of things ("...which should be obvious to anyone who's familiar with the Hero's Journey..."). (Also, the "2000+ Stage" thing doesn't really get a lot of respect around here.)

Given that one can find all sorts of articles that describe the inciting incident the same way I do (I linked to five of them in an earlier post on this thread), how exactly do you justify your claims?

 

[Devor]

Inciting Incident vs Call to Adventure is explained in this youtube video: Inciting Incident vs Call To Adventure - Kal Bashir, 2000+ Stage Hero's Journey - YouTube

I'll accept, for a moment, the definitions offered in the video. Why not?

There's still no reason the Inciting Incident can't happen in Chapter 3 if the Ordinary World and the State of Perfection have enough conflict in and of themselves. If the character's life, for instance, is that he's a warrior slaying enemies on the battlefield, then it may be an interesting enough life to devote a few chapters to before we start to incite the plotline.

The assumption, of course, being that interesting conflicts can exist during the so-called State of Perfection, and honestly, if they can't, then that's a lousy model to go by.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't have a problem with the video, per se, though as noted above it could be more detailed. The thing is, the video relates to stories that follow the Hero's Journey or Monomyth. Not all stories follow this, and for those that don't there is simply no reason that one must apply the principles stated in the video.

 

[Rullenzar]

This is just my personal opinion:

I find action scenes that are way too early to be bothersome. You haven't gotten a chance to properly get invested in the story, chances are you don't know the character/characters well enough yet to even care if one of them dies during. For instance, I don't have the book here next to me but I think in Game of thrones Bran being pushed off balcony was end of 2nd chapter and that was enough to get the reader interested and opened up all kinds of interesting doors to ponder about. It was very subtle and worked beautifully.

On the other hand if written properly authors can pull off an early action scene but I can't think of one who has off the top of my head and I'm not sure if I could.

 

[Poppy]

I don't have a problem with the video, per se, though as noted above it could be more detailed. The thing is, the video relates to stories that follow the Hero's Journey or Monomyth. Not all stories follow this, and for those that don't there is simply no reason that one must apply the principles stated in the video.

He's done a breakdown of all the academy award winners. The argument is that they do ALL follow it.

Which falls in line with the whole monomyth / monostory idea.

 

[Poppy]

That sure sounds like an incident which incites our hero into action.

There are lots of "incidents" in a story which "incite" but not all of them are inciting incidents.

 

[Steerpike]

He's done a breakdown of all the academy award winners. The argument is that they do ALL follow it.

Which falls in line with the whole monomyth / monostory idea.

The monomyth idea is that all "myths" follow it. Not all stories rise to the level of myth. Even the sample "all academy award winners" is a small sampling of the totality of stories, and it is also not a random sampling because it deals with pre-selected stories that share at least one commonality - an academy award. You can't extrapolate from there to say that all stories follow the monomyth, and I believe even Joseph Campbell would have said that the monomyth refers to certain types of stories (namely, myths). I find the monomyth idea compelling, but I am not at all persuaded that there is a monostory. Not all stories are myths.

 

[Poppy]

In my understanding, the inciting incident is the event in the story that breaks the hero out of his normal world.

That's the Call To Adventure.

Sure it's an "incident" that "incites" but it's not the Inciting Incident.

 

[Poppy]

Says who? If I have a story with the inciting incident at the very start, and then I add a backstory prologue before it, is it somehow no longer an inciting incident, even though the incident hasn't changed? That doesn't make any sense.

It makes beautiful sense.

As I said, there are lots of "incidents" that "incite" in a story and each has a name. It's only called the "Inciting Incident" if it meets certain conditions and placement has a lot to do with it.

It's a story structure thing. It's about pinpointing the geography of the cycle.

 

[Poppy]

(Also, the "2000+ Stage" thing doesn't really get a lot of respect around here.)

You need to give it more respect and time, because it's awesome.

 

[Poppy]

The assumption, of course, being that interesting conflicts can exist during the so-called State of Perfection, and honestly, if they can't, then that's a lousy model to go by.

OMG

You have repressed conflicts in the State of Perfection. It's Pandora's box all locked up. It's the Gremlins all tucked away safe and sound in the Chinese store.

It's when Pandora's box is opened that the shit hits the fan and the story starts. And you're trying to get all the Gremlins back in the box so you can sleep again.

 

[Poppy]

The monomyth idea is that all "myths" follow it. Not all stories rise to the level of myth. Even the sample "all academy award winners" is a small sampling of the totality of stories, and it is also not a random sampling because it deals with pre-selected stories that share at least one commonality - an academy award. You can't extrapolate from there to say that all stories follow the monomyth, and I believe even Joseph Campbell would have said that the monomyth refers to certain types of stories (namely, myths). I find the monomyth idea compelling, but I am not at all persuaded that there is a monostory. Not all stories are myths.

They don't have to be myths.

Millions of non-myth stories have been found to contain Campbell's stages. Bashir says that all the Academy Award winners contain them and they're not all myths.

Say you go with the idea that ALL stories involve transformation. Then you must have State A and State B. You extrapolate in that way.

If you accept that ALL stories involve transformation then you're already coming round to the monostory idea.

Bashir's awesome because he explains why all of these features must exist.

I used to ridicule his POV but now I think it's the only way. I don't think it's possible to create a story outside this set of parameters.

It's pretty hard to get away from the monostory idea: all stories solve problems, all stories contain a supernatural aid etc etc

Even if you hate the idea, you're next story WILL contain a supernatural aid. You do it subconsciously.

 

[Steerpike]

They don't have to be myths.

Millions of non-myth stories have been found to contain Campbell's stages. Bashir says that all the Academy Award winners contain them and they're not all myths.

Say you go with the idea that ALL stories involve transformation. Then you must have State A and State B. You extrapolate in that way.

If you accept that ALL stories involve transformation then you're already coming round to the monostory idea.

Bashir's awesome because he explains why all of these features must exist.

I used to ridicule his POV but now I think it's the only way. I don't think it's possible to create a story outside this set of parameters.

It's pretty hard to get away from the monostory idea: all stories solve problems, all stories contain a supernatural aid etc etc

Even if you hate the idea, you're next story WILL contain a supernatural aid. You do it subconsciously.

Yes, I agree with the idea that non-myths can, and some do, contain these stages. But what I'm saying is that not all stories have them. The idea of the monomyth is that through some collective unconscious, myths around the world are essentially telling the same stories. Non-myths may very well follow the pattern, but not all stories do so. Even Campbell distinguished between myths and stories that were for other purposes.

I do think many non-myth stories follow the Hero's Journey, whether done consciously or sub-consciously by the writer. I do not think that all stories follow the monomyth idea. Take Nabokov's book Lolita, for example, which is an excellent work. I think you'd have to stretch interpretation of the monomyth past the point of credulity to make it fit that story. Maybe not even then.

So it is possible to create a story outside the parameters of the monomyth, and in my view many authors have done so. If you open the discussion up to shorter works (short stories) I suspect you'll find even more than do not follow it. These are still stories.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

It makes beautiful sense.

*waits patiently* ...And? Are you going to elaborate on that or just make assertions without supporting them?

As I said, there are lots of "incidents" that "incite" in a story and each has a name. It's only called the "Inciting Incident" if it meets certain conditions and placement has a lot to do with it.

*waits somewhat less patiently* ...AND? Are you going to explain what those conditions are, or not? Eight posts in this thread and you've still given absolutely no details about what exactly you think constitutes an "inciting incident." I have no interest in watching random videos; can't you write a few words of your own to support your arguments?

 

[Poppy]

I do not think that all stories follow the monomyth idea. Take Nabokov's book Lolita, for example, which is an excellent work. I think you'd have to stretch interpretation of the monomyth past the point of credulity to make it fit that story. Maybe not even then.

No disrespect, but I don't think you know monomyth or understand it's implications.

Lolita is easily a monomyth. You have the father figure who provokes the child who grows up. Just like in Star Wars you have a father figure who provokes the child to grow up. And that's just looking at it from a million miles away.

 

[Poppy]

If you open the discussion up to shorter works (short stories) I suspect you'll find even more than do not follow it. These are still stories.

James George Frazer and Robert Graves are two authors who have examined this issue from the short story / poem perspective.

They make Campbell seem superficial.

They basically get to the same idea that there is only one story.

 

[Poppy]

*waits somewhat less patiently*

If you want to get shirty about it, you can wait.

 

[Devor]

OMG

Please settle down. We're just chatting.

You have repressed conflicts in the State of Perfection. It's Pandora's box all locked up. It's the Gremlins all tucked away safe and sound in the Chinese store.

It's when Pandora's box is opened that the shit hits the fan and the story starts. And you're trying to get all the Gremlins back in the box so you can sleep again.

Could you be a little more clear? What's wrong with taking a few chapters to show the character's life? If the character's life is compelling, you can easily do so without inciting a plot of any kind. Isn't it part of the "State of Perfection," which comes first in your video?

 

[Poppy]

Yes, I agree with the idea that non-myths can, and some do, contain these stages. But what I'm saying is that not all stories have them.

I know where you're coming from. Really, I do.

But just go with a WHAT IF.

Stick to a field, say movies. And lets say you're writing a novel which you hope Hollywood will make into a movie, so you're bringing in novels too.

WHAT IF all those movies DID have them (and they DO).

Then you have to ask yourself WHY.

Exploring that leads to some seriously enlightening territory which makes all these "inciting incident" and "three-act" debates seem low-IQ.

Respectfully, I suggest you go on that journey.

 

[Poppy]

Could you be a little more clear? What's wrong with taking a few chapters to show the character's life? If the character's life is compelling, you can easily do so without inciting a plot of any kind. Isn't it part of the "State of Perfection," which comes first in your video?

There's no reason to have an Inciting Incident at all.

You can show a character's compelling life. But then you'll need to get her out of that to move the story on. People are incorrectly attributing that action as Inciting Incident which it is not. That's Call To Adventure.

That's not my video. I'm pointing you to it because the separation between II and C2A is explained well.