What to do about the Villain - Open discussion :)

[Jackarandajam]

Personally I'm not very fond of these attempts to more exactly categorise stories. For me the risk is that we as readers limit ourselves to certain types of stories, certain tightly defined genres, when perhaps we would gain more by reading more widely..

That is a good point and something to be taken into consideration.
However.
I am entirely sick of romances masquerading as fantasy. Not that there's anything wrong with fantasy-romances, necessarily, and goodness knows they have a MASSIVE fan-base.
But if what I considered to be "normal fantasy" (maybe 10% romance in the book, a subplot if not a sub-sub-plot), is now a smallish genre of fantasy for weird people who like action, don't mind some violence and language, but are entirely uninterested in a book loaded to the headboard with NSFW scenes or more subtly written for cover-to-cover edging, PLEASE label it and tell me what it's called.

Call it Prude Fantasy, I don't care.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Personally I'm not very fond of these attempts to more exactly categorise stories. For me the risk is that we as readers limit ourselves to certain types of stories, certain tightly defined genres, when perhaps we would gain more by reading more widely..

I personally don't care too much either for all the different sub-genres or sub-sub-genres. I just read Fantasy, or any other book that's good. However, I do think that as an author I should know about them. Those sub-sub-genres are part of the business of being an author.

Like it or not, some people only read very specific genres. Romance is notorious for this, but even in Fantasy, there are people who don't like Grimdark, or who only read Urban Fantasy or whatever. If you want to sell to them, it pays to know a bit about those genres.

Same with getting your book in the right categories in the different market places. Even if people read everything, maybe today they'd like a Noblebright fantasy epic. Having your book there if it is one, helps them find it. And it helps setting expectations. You're a lot more likely to get good reviews if people have an idea of what to expect when they buy your book.

And then there's the story side. Of course you can subvert expectations, and have an antagonist that goes against what's the default in your subgenre. But it helps if you know what kind of story you're writing. If you have a complex Grimdark tale where everyone is a different shade of grey, then having an antagonist who is pure black will feel wrong to readers and it will not match their genre expectations. In the same way, they also wouldn't believe a pure white character. Gandalf wouldn't work in Game of Thrones, or he'd get his head chopped off like Ned Stark. That doesn't mean he's a bad character, just that he's not great character for the story GRR Martin was telling.

Also, you can only really subvert expectations when you actually know what those expectations are. Which is why you need to know what genre your readers think your story is.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

That is a good point and something to be taken into consideration.
However.
I am entirely sick of romances masquerading as fantasy. Not that there's anything wrong with fantasy-romances, necessarily, and goodness knows they have a MASSIVE fan-base.
But if what I considered to be "normal fantasy" (maybe 10% romance in the book, a subplot if not a sub-sub-plot), is now a smallish genre of fantasy for weird people who like action, don't mind some violence and language, but are entirely uninterested in a book loaded to the headboard with NSFW scenes or more subtly written for cover-to-cover edging, PLEASE label it and tell me what it's called.

Call it Prude Fantasy, I don't care.

No girl cooties. Gotcha.

 

[Jackarandajam]

No girl cooties. Gotcha.

EXACTLY. ew.

 

[Fidel]

I don't think I'm looking for anything in particular here, if I'm honest. Just been thinking about my own villain a bit, and trying to piece together the best narrative outcome for her and my protagonists. For me, I'm probably going to redeem her since she doesn't understand the full consequences of her tyranny and has emotional ties to one of my two protagonists.

For authors who had good triumph over evil, authors who didn't, and any author or aspiring author who has something to say: what did you do with your villains?

Just make them evil

 

[Jackarandajam]

Just heard an interesting definition of Antagonist in a book on screenwriting:

"[Darth Vader, like all antagonists, is] the embodiment of the story world's central rule."

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Just heard an interesting definition of Antagonist in a book on screenwriting:

"[Darth Vader, like all antagonists, is] the embodiment of the story world's central rule."

Ooh. Okay, that's intriguing. Which book?

 

[Jackarandajam]

Ooh. Okay, that's intriguing. Which book?

Screenwriting 101: Mastering the art of Story
-The Great Courses, Audible

So far it's been very good!

 

[JBCrowson]

OK

Just heard an interesting definition of Antagonist in a book on screenwriting:

"[Darth Vader, like all antagonists, is] the embodiment of the story world's central rule."

OK, so this is of course a huge gauntlet tossed down like some Dickensian noble having a bad day. Now someone has to come up with an antagonist who does not represent the world's central rule.

I think the Wheel of Time series might qualify.
Technically War of the Worlds does as well I would argue.

 

[Dylan]

I don't think I'm looking for anything in particular here, if I'm honest. Just been thinking about my own villain a bit, and trying to piece together the best narrative outcome for her and my protagonists. For me, I'm probably going to redeem her since she doesn't understand the full consequences of her tyranny and has emotional ties to one of my two protagonists.

For authors who had good triumph over evil, authors who didn't, and any author or aspiring author who has something to say: what did you do with your villains?

The villain, this is always an interesting topic. The villain of course should always be evil but it is always fun when it actually very hard to defeat the villain, it kinda makes the story much more interesting and keeps readers locked in to know how it actually ends

 

[Jackarandajam]

OK

OK, so this is of course a huge gauntlet tossed down like some Dickensian noble having a bad day. Now someone has to come up with an antagonist who does not represent the world's central rule.

I think the Wheel of Time series might qualify.
Technically War of the Worlds does as well I would argue.

War of the Worlds:
Survival of the fittest. The Martians are far superior to us in technology and therefore are unstoppable. They both embody the new top of the story world food chain, and succumb to the rule of the story world in the form of earth bacteria. We are proven to be the fittest for this planet.

I'm embarrassed to say I don't know enough about WoT to say, but I'd wager it's something like ye olde Order vs. Chaos dichotomy: the wheel of time being the ever present order in the universe, and the dark one being the chaos that ever struggles to break it.

 

[pmmg]

Just heard an interesting definition of Antagonist in a book on screenwriting:

"[Darth Vader, like all antagonists, is] the embodiment of the story world's central rule."

Its an interesting declaration, but I suspect there are exceptions. Using that word 'all' is usually trouble.

 

[E.C. Henry]

what did you do with your villains?

Villains DRIVE my plots. Villains give the hero something to fight against.

Villains a INFINITELY more important that your main protagonist.

In my epic fantasy saga, my master villain succumbs to the devil in an attempt to stay in control of a spiraling situation and retain his anonymity. His right-hand henchmen has noble aims, but he prizes revenge, retribution, and achieving his "destiny" above all. My third tier villain is consciousless master thief who has little to no value of human life.

I value VARIETY in villains. Complexity is the the other trait I value in villains.

Good question, Empathy001!

 

[Jackarandajam]

Villains DRIVE my plots. Villains give the hero something to fight against.

Villains a INFINITELY more important that your main protagonist.

In my epic fantasy saga, my master villain succumbs to the devil in an attempt to stay in control of a spiraling situation and retain his anonymity. His right-hand henchmen has noble aims, but he prizes revenge, retribution, and achieving his "destiny" above all. My third tier villain is consciousless master thief who has little to no value of human life.

I value VARIETY in villains. Complexity is the the other trait I value in villains.

Good question, Empathy001!

This sounds suspiciously like your antagonist is your protagonist.

If you think about it in a vague way, imagine you have a force. That force is being misdirected and wasted by not being tested. Now imagine that force is given the opportunity to be tested. It refuses, because easier is better. But now everyone wants to see what that force will do if forced to grow.
Boom, the story forces it to grow.
THAT is your protagonist.
Now, imagine that this thing, the perfect opposition to this growth, is in your forces way. Everyone wants to see this force at full realization, but there is this thing coming that makes them question if it is possible for the force to prevail.
That thing is your antagonist.

It is infinitely tempting to over-fixate on the antagonist, because they are fun to write. But if the antagonist overshadows the protagonist, the story doesn't work. Antagonist and protagonist are names for functions within a story.
A throwaway protagonist and an overworked antagonist does not a story make. The reason people follow a story is for the protagonist. A good antagonist is a great thing, but a good protagonist is far better.

(See:  Sauron)

 

[pmmg]

Villains DRIVE my plots. Villains give the hero something to fight against.

Villains a INFINITELY more important that your main protagonist.

Dont sell your protagonists short. The story doesn't move without them either.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

*grabs bag*
*grabs characters*
*stuffs characters in bag*
*shake like a tank of betas*

Welcome to Seahaven...

 

[dollyt8]

Ooh, I love talking about villains!

One of my favorite things to do is have multiple villains. I generally follow this formula: One redeemed, one unbelievably and irrevocably and unreasonably evil, and one tragically evil.

This formula will probably get old after a few books, but since I don't share most of my writing, I'm not worried about this. I like this because I get to explore a lot of different themes. The redeemed villain will eventually go on to help the protagonists and be one of the most interesting characters; I don't write them off after the redemption. The unreasonably evil one might have somewhat of a tragic backstory (though not necessarily), but the evil they do will be completely out of proportion to what was done to them. The tragically evil one usually has a long, slow descent that is intentionally painful to read, interspersed with false hope of redemption throughout. So basically the reader has no way to know which one will be redeemed and which one will go horribly downhill. As for the unreasonably evil one, they're just there to do all of the terrible things that no one else will and make the protag's life more miserable. Also they can be part of some really cool action scenes and climaxes.

 

[Fidel]

Villains can drive the plot and add depth. Consider giving them a backstory, potential for redemption, and different types of evil. Subverting expectations can also make them more engaging. What kind of villain are you guys thinking about for your stories?

 

[Dylan]

Villains can drive the plot and add depth. Consider giving them a backstory, potential for redemption, and different types of evil. Subverting expectations can also make them more engaging. What kind of villain are you guys thinking about for your stories?

I'm thinking of someone like Thanos

 

[Penpilot]

I'm thinking of someone like Thanos

;P

https://www.amazon.com/Thanos-Redemption-Starlin-November-Paperback/dp/B014S2WTM2