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What're your feelings about reading other books in same genre while you're writing

The devil's advocate says not so fast my friend. Story is a proverbial cat waiting to be skinned, reading novels is one route... very useful if that's what you intend to write, but in this multi-media universe story can learned and studied (perhaps even more efficiently) via film. One pretty much needs to read in order to learn how to write well, but but you don't even need to know how to write in order to tell a great story.

This. Plot is super condensed and easily visible in film. It's like an outline. Identify the plot points. write them down as you watch.
 
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Chessie

Guest
I guess this is our difference--poor prose impairs my ability to enjoy a story as much or more than poor story. I just can't get through it. And often good writing will get me through a story I wouldn't ordinarily like. (Good writing isn't a band-aid slappable on any steaming pile of boring--but it helps, it does help.)

Please don't read things you don't enjoy, you'll get into a reading slump like I did recently and take months to recover! I knida got into the reading slump following my own advice. But know that reading mediocre prose will make your prose mediocre if you aren't careful. You will pick up the bad habits of writers you read.

The worst thing you can do is always to NOT read, of course. Better pulp than nothing. And some people don't do well without a little fluff in their lives. (I'm not that person. But still.) Of course, the definition of 'fluff' is also subjective--I know many on here would consider Harry Potter fluff--but let's walk this road no longer...

Um...if I say that prose is important to me, then how is that saying that I read stories despite the prose being bad? I'm pretty sure that's not what my point was/even typed those words. Also, when you say better pulp than nothing: unless you know the author personally, then how would you know how long it took him/her to write the book? Pulp is defined by the speed at which it's written. What does pulp look like? Hint, it looks like all the other genre fiction out there. So there's really no way to tell whether a book you're reading is pulp fiction or not because pulp authors don't label their books as such. Also, there are authors out there who write at speeds considered pulp whose prose and story would be indistinguishable from books that have taken longer to write.
 
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Chessie

Guest
The devil's advocate says not so fast my friend. Story is a proverbial cat waiting to be skinned, reading novels is one route... very useful if that's what you intend to write, but in this multi-media universe story can learned and studied (perhaps even more efficiently) via film. One pretty much needs to read in order to learn how to write well, but but you don't even need to know how to write in order to tell a great story.

I completely disagree and you're also contradicting yourself. If you're on the side that prose is important in being able to tell a good story, then you must know how to write. Right? If you don't know how to construct prose in a way that's clear to the reader, how is the story supposed to shine through?

Films do use the same plot points that novels do, true. However, they do things differently. Come on, Des! :D Movies are a visual medium. Books are mental. So a different approach is needed when creating either one. If you're not reading fiction, then you're not going to understand how to build a narrative that connects those plot points into a good story. More helpful to the novelist is reading vs watching movies.
 
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Um...if I say that prose is important to me, then how is that saying that I read stories despite the prose being bad? I'm pretty sure that's not what my point was/even typed those words. Also, when you say better pulp than nothing: unless you know the author personally, then how would you know how long it took him/her to write the book? Pulp is defined by the speed at which it's written. What does pulp look like? Hint, it looks like all the other genre fiction out there. So there's really no way to tell whether a book you're reading is pulp fiction or not because pulp authors don't label their books as such. Also, there are authors out there who write at speeds considered pulp whose prose and story would be indistinguishable from books that have taken longer to write.

You didn't say you read stories despite the prose being bad and I didn't say you said that.

And yeah, I am making a generalization. Not an unwarranted one, though--good books are rare (at least for someone as picky as me), and there are a lot of them to wade through nowadays to find anything that's not a waste of trees. (The popularity of ebooks does mitigate my tree concerns.) Also I wasn't sure of the specific definition of pulp fiction (I use words knowing only usual context and not definition all the time. all. the. time.) so sorry about that. Meant something broader, the mainstream generally, the 'trendy' stuff (though I kinda was thinking about authors spitting out bestsellers at insanely fast rates, factory fashion...)

Please don't take me as one of those people that thinks only classics are worth anyone's time. (Though I haven't been reading a lot else lately.) I'm feeling a little desolated by the 'popular' stuff right now. I don't know about the adult market, but in the YA market the style is all painfully generic and the plots are all the same. I would want to flush out my brain after reading one.

I stand by my view that you can't improve by reading *just anything*. Just...idk. Read stuff that's above you. A discussion of how exactly you define quality could last forever.
 
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I completely disagree and you're also contradicting yourself. If you're on the side that prose is important in being able to tell a good story, then you must know how to write. Right? If you don't know how to construct prose in a way that's clear to the reader, how is the story supposed to shine through?

Films do use the same plot points that novels do, true. However, they do things differently. Come on, Des! :D Movies are a visual medium. Books are mental. So a different approach is needed when creating either one. If you're not reading fiction, then you're not going to understand how to build a narrative that connects those plot points into a good story. More helpful to the novelist is reading vs watching movies.

Also very true. But if it's plot you want to learn...The idea attracts me since plot is what I struggle most with.
 
I don't know about the adult market, but in the YA market the style is all painfully generic and the plots are all the same. I would want to flush out my brain after reading one.

This might be part of the problem ... YA is all about coming of age so it tends to be formulaic by nature. I started reading "adult" books in sixth grade and never looked back. There's very little originality in the YA world and I don't think there needs to be ... you're only in the target demographic for a handful of years before you progress forward to NA or just plain adult so the need to keep you coming back for more just isn't there. Essentially, the readers (more or less) age out of the genre so being new/fresh/hip just doesn't matter as much. It's a bit like children's books. If someone ripped off Goodnight Moon I wouldn't even notice because I'm no longer reading children's books.

That being said, traditional publishing tries to squeeze out every last dollar from every trend they can before moving on. That's just the nature of the big five.

Pulp tends to be more about quick reads and entertainment than philosophy & social commentary. Everything has its time, place, and market. To each his own.

But ... maybe think about moving into "adult" fiction. There's a heck of lot more of it and in my opinion, it's almost always better written.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
(Once again I stare at my little Middle Grades Pirate story that I love and shake my head while cradling it in my arms. Don't worry little story. I love you.)

Gah! These conversations drive me bat shit crazy.

Seriously.

You guys do realize that there are thousands of styles and stories out there besides the Epic Dragon/ D & D fantasy right?

Do you understand that 'adult' fiction means a swath of different things?

You do understand that the market for each is geared towards just that 'the market' who consists of a vast variety of people in different age ranges with different reading abilities who read for different reasons?

I can't stand, and it makes me so frustrated when we argue about "good prose" vs. "good story."

It does.

My son loves Clifford books and The Berenstain Bears and also the really crappy Lego Star Wars books that are out there right now. You know why? Because he's 5.

An adult wrote those books. Yep. An adult sat down and wrote Clifford in all is "crappy, juvenile nonpoetic prose" and "unbelievable story lines." Can you believe it? A giant dog. Oh, how lame is that. But he made a crap load of money off those books and I buy them for my kid because they are written for the level he is at.

I teach grade 3/4. My boys in my class eat up Diary of Wimpy Kid and Percy Jackson. They love them. In all the 'crappy writing and tropey story lines'. Because it is easy for them to read and understand and they relate to those tropey story lines. In fact, I would argue they find comfort in them.

So please, until you guys are winning awards like Rick Riordan, and until you've actually done some market research into what your readers want and why stop bashing YA and its bad writing.

It's not bad writing. It is written for a specific audience and it sells. Maybe not to you because you are the literary elite obviously and if it isn't Lord of the Rings it's not worth being on the shelf.

I'm going to regret posting this.
 
So please, until you guys are winning awards like Rick Riordan, and until you've actually done some market research into what your readers want and why stop bashing YA and its bad writing.

It's not bad writing. It is written for a specific audience and it sells. Maybe not to you because you are the literary elite obviously and if it isn't Lord of the Rings it's not worth being on the shelf.

I'm going to regret posting this.

I totally agree only I'd like to clarify that when I said "better written" what I meant was better written for you & your tastes as an older person. Of course, "good" and "better" are subjective. ;) YA has a specific audience (just like cozy mysteries or any other market) so if you find yourself outside of the target audience, it might not appeal to you for that reason and not just because "it's bad".
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
I'm going to regret posting this.

Relax Helio. We're all entitled to a good rant every once in a while. You didn't go after any previous poster here and that's great. I doubt that vented frustrations are going hurt someone's feelings or make them feel insulted.

The key to any post in a thread like this is fostering mutual respect. As long as that standard is adhered to, albeit loosely in many cases, that's all that really matters.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Thanks, Reaver and Catholic Crow, I usually don't go on long rants like that but this topic drives me nuts.

YA has a specific audience (just like cozy mysteries or any other market) so if you find yourself outside of the target audience, it might not appeal to you for that reason and not just because "it's bad".

^^^ And this is why the OP is an important question. I think it is very valuable to read other books in your chosen genre... I chose to write Middle Grades because I think that is what I write best. That is the sort of story I'm drawn to. I'm inspired by children and adolescents and their vulnerability but also their resiliency. I write for them, and I also spend a good part of my life as a teacher reading for them, so I know what they want and what sort of language they understand.

The same will be true for writers who are inspired by Mysteries, or paranormal romance, or animal adventures.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
Actually, I agree with you, Helio, and your points are precisely the reason why I argue "good story" vs "good prose". It's something I believe is worth defending (story over prose specifically) because I hear a lot from other writers about how beautiful prose is everything. What matters is whether or not a book is meeting reader expectations for its genre.

And yes, plot is formulaic and that's the entire point. :)
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
Thanks, Reaver and Catholic Crow, I usually don't go on long rants like that but this topic drives me nuts.



^^^ And this is why the OP is an important question. I think it is very valuable to read other books in your chosen genre... I chose to write Middle Grades because I think that is what I write best. That is the sort of story I'm drawn to. I'm inspired by children and adolescents and their vulnerability but also their resiliency. I write for them, and I also spend a good part of my life as a teacher reading for them, so I know what they want and what sort of language they understand.

The same will be true for writers who are inspired by Mysteries, or paranormal romance, or animal adventures.

I couldn't agree more Helio. Insofar as this topic goes, I think you've been here long enough to know that it has popped up before and most assuredly it will again. My advice is, for your own mental health and well being, avoid future threads that bring up this topic.

I think that the demographic you've chosen to write for is a great one. Being an educator, you already know how important it is to get kids interested in reading. I think that they're lucky to have an author like you. Back in my younger years, fantasy books for the YA crowd were practically non-existent.

Luckily for me, the very first fantasy book I ever read was The Hobbit, which I'd argue is geared toward children eight years of age and beyond.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
It's something I believe is worth defending (story over prose specifically) because I hear a lot from other writers about how beautiful prose is everything. What matters is whether or not a book is meeting reader expectations for its genre.

I'm still having issues with this. I spent a lot of time and effort trying to polish my prose, and I feel like I've only just begun to scratch the surface of actually telling a story.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
I'm still having issues with this. I spent a lot of time and effort trying to polish my prose, and I feel like I've only just begun to scratch the surface of actually telling a story.

And maybe that's just your process. Maybe you're learning what's in tune with where you are as a person and artist right now. Being mindful of it, I think, is what's more important. Knowing that at some point you're probably going to need to make that shift.
 
(Once again I stare at my little Middle Grades Pirate story that I love and shake my head while cradling it in my arms. Don't worry little story. I love you.)

Gah! These conversations drive me bat shit crazy.

Seriously.

You guys do realize that there are thousands of styles and stories out there besides the Epic Dragon/ D & D fantasy right?

Do you understand that 'adult' fiction means a swath of different things?

You do understand that the market for each is geared towards just that 'the market' who consists of a vast variety of people in different age ranges with different reading abilities who read for different reasons?

I can't stand, and it makes me so frustrated when we argue about "good prose" vs. "good story."

It does.

My son loves Clifford books and The Berenstain Bears and also the really crappy Lego Star Wars books that are out there right now. You know why? Because he's 5.

An adult wrote those books. Yep. An adult sat down and wrote Clifford in all is "crappy, juvenile nonpoetic prose" and "unbelievable story lines." Can you believe it? A giant dog. Oh, how lame is that. But he made a crap load of money off those books and I buy them for my kid because they are written for the level he is at.

I teach grade 3/4. My boys in my class eat up Diary of Wimpy Kid and Percy Jackson. They love them. In all the 'crappy writing and tropey story lines'. Because it is easy for them to read and understand and they relate to those tropey story lines. In fact, I would argue they find comfort in them.

So please, until you guys are winning awards like Rick Riordan, and until you've actually done some market research into what your readers want and why stop bashing YA and its bad writing.

It's not bad writing. It is written for a specific audience and it sells. Maybe not to you because you are the literary elite obviously and if it isn't Lord of the Rings it's not worth being on the shelf.

I'm going to regret posting this.

Thanks for this. (I don't consider myself the literary elite, so I hope you didn't mean me.) Even though I don't like a lot of YA, it makes me sad when people bash YA as a whole. As if being written for teenagers makes a book bad. Or, of no value for the adult reader.

Half of YA books are actually bought and read by adults. True thing.

I mean, I'm technically within the target audience for YA, but the majority is mediocre. But when I do find one that I like...I love it when that happens.

P.S. My brother, who didn't read at all a year ago, is now reading Percy Jackson and loves them. He's trying to make me read them so he will have someone to talk to about them. It's a seriously good thing that people write books for people like him who otherwise wouldn't read.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I'd like to think so as well. One thing I've learned through all of this is confidence. Not only do I have the courage to show off what I do to people I have little to no idea who they are. I'm also confident I know my strengths and weaknesses in a whole different way than I did back in the day.
I'll get around to figuring out this whole story thing, but I think that for me the best way of doing it is to just keep writing. Try out different things, see what works and what doesn't. Eventually I'll start getting into craft books as well, reading more about writing, but I think that in order to really take advantage of that I need to have more experience to build upon.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
I'd like to think so as well. One thing I've learned through all of this is confidence. Not only do I have the courage to show off what I do to people I have little to no idea who they are. I'm also confident I know my strengths and weaknesses in a whole different way than I did back in the day.
I'll get around to figuring out this whole story thing, but I think that for me the best way of doing it is to just keep writing. Try out different things, see what works and what doesn't. Eventually I'll start getting into craft books as well, reading more about writing, but I think that in order to really take advantage of that I need to have more experience to build upon.

It's never too early to read craft books. And in tying that back to the OP, I'll say that in desiring to improve as a writer, craft books are helpful to read alongside fiction. A lot of times I'll learn something in a craft book that I then spot being done in a novel. It's kind of cool being able to recognize such things. It reinforces what I learn.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
It's never too early to read craft books. And in tying that back to the OP, I'll say that in desiring to improve as a writer, craft books are helpful to read alongside fiction. A lot of times I'll learn something in a craft book that I then spot being done in a novel. It's kind of cool being able to recognize such things. It reinforces what I learn.

Knowing me, I'll probably keep disagreeing with that until I actually start reading some and then I'll change my mind. It's happened way too many times in the past like that.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Nope, not contradictory. Great stories were told (and most likely used 3 acts) with verbal traditions. Prose is important to writing a great story... not telling one.

A great novel is a relationship between both, but rarely do both meet at a high level.

I completely disagree and you're also contradicting yourself. If you're on the side that prose is important in being able to tell a good story, then you must know how to write. Right? If you don't know how to construct prose in a way that's clear to the reader, how is the story supposed to shine through?

Films do use the same plot points that novels do, true. However, they do things differently. Come on, Des! :D Movies are a visual medium. Books are mental. So a different approach is needed when creating either one. If you're not reading fiction, then you're not going to understand how to build a narrative that connects those plot points into a good story. More helpful to the novelist is reading vs watching movies.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
I completely disagree and you're also contradicting yourself. If you're on the side that prose is important in being able to tell a good story, then you must know how to write. Right? If you don't know how to construct prose in a way that's clear to the reader, how is the story supposed to shine through?

Films do use the same plot points that novels do, true. However, they do things differently. Come on, Des! :D Movies are a visual medium. Books are mental. So a different approach is needed when creating either one. If you're not reading fiction, then you're not going to understand how to build a narrative that connects those plot points into a good story. More helpful to the novelist is reading vs watching movies.

And I have to pick on the second part... nope, the approach is the same, novel and movie, when it comes to story. The mantra for making movies is: story, story, story! Wherever you look, there are parallels. There is essentially no difference in how you approach building a story between a novel and a screenplay, except of course one can be any length you want, theoretically, and a novel as an unlimited FX budget, LOL. Movies, if anything, tend to be even more story driven than novels, and building plot points and narrative... it's all the same. It's all storytelling. A novel might look more complex (for instance epic fantasy) but that's merely due to the lack of restraints in length. There really isn't a thing about storytelling you can't learn by watching movies.
 
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