When does an idea or concept become something you own and can copyright?

[Mad Swede]

Josh2Write has commented several times on ideas being stolen, and it seems to me that this is something we should discuss in a thread of its own.

My opening comments are based on what is in the so-called Berne Convention, which regulates copyright in the western world including the US.

As a general rule, we as writers can't claim exclusive ownership of an idea or concept. What makes our writing unique, and what enables us to copyright our own work, is the unique spin we put on an idea or concept.

As an example I'll take the concept of a private investigator (PI). We've all come across books about them, and Raymond Chandler's stories about Philip Marlowe are some of the best known in the genre. But the idea or concept of a fictional PI isn't unique to Chandler. Other earlier examples are Dashiell Hammet's nameless Continental Op and Caroll John Daly's Race Williams. Later examples would be Robert Parker's Spenser. Fantasy examples would be Glen Cook's books about Garrett PI and also Phil and Katja Foglio's Ivo Sharktooth Private Jäger.

All of these writers have used the same idea, that of a private investigator who takes on cases and solves them. What makes each of the writers unique is how they develop the idea, primarily in terms of the characters, their feelings and their motivation. My view is that this characterisation is built on each of the writers own experiences and personalities, what they as writers have been through in life and how they have reacted to these things. To me as a writer that's the only place this unique spin on an idea can come from. When I read stories by Chandler and Hammett I can see these differences in how they write and what they focus on in their stories, and I also see it Glen Cook's stories.

As a writer I don't mind seeing ideas and concepts that I've used in my stories get used somewhere else. I'll admit to having taken ideas and concepts from other stories and used them in my own way in my stories. I'm always curious to see how other writers develop ideas and concepts that I've used in my stories. Not because I want to copy them but because I enjoy seeing others take ideas and run with them. To me that's how stories and story telling develop and grow.

But what do the rest of you think?

 

[LeslieRWaggonerIII]

Ecclesiastes 1:9: “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.”

Even the subversion of tropes and plots will always be an amalgamation of past experiences and others work half remembered and colored with your life experiences. (basic regurgitation of your stance)

That being said, my first novel flies in the face of convention and modern publishing and editing standards. I have struggled hard to maintain my own voice and style, beset upon all sides by those that lean into Checkov's gun, removal of adverbial nuances, and minimalistic prose.

If someone were to start copying my work... more power to them. They can struggle the same as I do.

In answer to the titular question, "When does an idea or concept become something you own and can copyright?", as soon as you put it into a permanent media it is yours. But you need to prove you did it first if you are going to use your copyright to fight someone over it.

 

[SamazonE]

If there was a story that had not been written, then there was no guarantee you would find it. Plenty of answers, no questions. If I were to write a book about a PI then I am sure it would have elements of both my own life and the lived experiences of others.

I had something about a pig. It came in a dream. There was an air balloon, and he was flying through a storm, into the lands of Satan. It was an interesting idea, based on fundamental concepts, but it never went anywhere.

Books like ideas that stand on their own, they are never meant to go anywhere. They can take all the pills that we want, but that won’t make any difference to our character. It is stories that come to life. We can fix anything with the stroke of a pen.

 

[Saigonnus]

I had something about a pig. It came in a dream. There was an air balloon, and he was flying through a storm, into the lands of Satan. It was an interesting idea, based on fundamental concepts, but it never went anywhere.

I think that dream might be a great start. Substitute a pig with the MC, have it be an airship or something cool like that, and instead of the lands of Satan, have it some unfamiliar place filled with danger and magic. Maybe that's the principal scene, with the MC swirling through the storm, stuck and just waiting to crash and maybe die.

I think as far as copyrighting goes, you have to submit the work to be copyrighted, the setting has to be something unique, or at least different enough from anything else written before, or perhaps based on a collection of characters. I mean, look at something like Harry Potter. Wizard school... done before... wizards coexisting with non-magic folk, any DND campaign has that. A dark lord; surely you must have heard of Darth Vader, or Thanos. Each of those things individually mean little. They are just plot points, parts of the story, but together, they form a whole that is unique enough to warrant copyrighting. This is especially true if it ends up as a movie; like with the MCU or the aforementioned Harry Potter.

 

[Josh2Write]

Josh2Write has commented several times on ideas being stolen, and it seems to me that this is something we should discuss in a thread of its own.

My opening comments are based on what is in the so-called Berne Convention, which regulates copyright in the western world including the US.

As a general rule, we as writers can't claim exclusive ownership of an idea or concept. What makes our writing unique, and what enables us to copyright our own work, is the unique spin we put on an idea or concept.

As an example I'll take the concept of a private investigator (PI). We've all come across books about them, and Raymond Chandler's stories about Philip Marlowe are some of the best known in the genre. But the idea or concept of a fictional PI isn't unique to Chandler. Other earlier examples are Dashiell Hammet's nameless Continental Op and Caroll John Daly's Race Williams. Later examples would be Robert Parker's Spenser. Fantasy examples would be Glen Cook's books about Garrett PI and also Phil and Katja Foglio's Ivo Sharktooth Private Jäger.

All of these writers have used the same idea, that of a private investigator who takes on cases and solves them. What makes each of the writers unique is how they develop the idea, primarily in terms of the characters, their feelings and their motivation. My view is that this characterisation is built on each of the writers own experiences and personalities, what they as writers have been through in life and how they have reacted to these things. To me as a writer that's the only place this unique spin on an idea can come from. When I read stories by Chandler and Hammett I can see these differences in how they write and what they focus on in their stories, and I also see it Glen Cook's stories.

As a writer I don't mind seeing ideas and concepts that I've used in my stories get used somewhere else. I'll admit to having taken ideas and concepts from other stories and used them in my own way in my stories. I'm always curious to see how other writers develop ideas and concepts that I've used in my stories. Not because I want to copy them but because I enjoy seeing others take ideas and run with them. To me that's how stories and story telling develop and grow.

But what do the rest of you think?

Because there's a vast difference between prompt and idea. All these PI writers have used the same prompt

 

[Mad Swede]

Because there's a vast difference between prompt and idea. All these PI writers have used the same prompt

Hmm, interesting (yes, I'm serious). What do you see as the difference between a prompt and an idea?

 

[Queshire]

I think that dream might be a great start. Substitute a pig with the MC, have it be an airship or something cool like that, and instead of the lands of Satan, have it some unfamiliar place filled with danger and magic. Maybe that's the principal scene, with the MC swirling through the storm, stuck and just waiting to crash and maybe die.

I think as far as copyrighting goes, you have to submit the work to be copyrighted, the setting has to be something unique, or at least different enough from anything else written before, or perhaps based on a collection of characters. I mean, look at something like Harry Potter. Wizard school... done before... wizards coexisting with non-magic folk, any DND campaign has that. A dark lord; surely you must have heard of Darth Vader, or Thanos. Each of those things individually mean little. They are just plot points, parts of the story, but together, they form a whole that is unique enough to warrant copyrighting. This is especially true if it ends up as a movie; like with the MCU or the aforementioned Harry Potter.

Nope! You don't have to register anything for it to be under copyright. However, you're copyrighting a specific expression rather than an idea.

The wise cracking insect themed superhero isn't under copyright since it's an idea, but Spiderman is under copyright as a specific expression of that idea.

 

[Josh2Write]

Because there's a vast difference between prom

Hmm, interesting (yes, I'm serious). What do you see as the difference between a prompt and an idea?

pt and idea.

Hmm, interesting (yes, I'm serious). What do you see as the difference between a prompt and an idea?

It's a complicated mess fueled by greed, jealousy, and narcissism going back generations. The prompt vs idea system was created this way on purpose so it would be frustrating to tell prompt from idea. There's no quick answer.

Example: Sleepy Hollow. The original story is the idea, everything since has been some sort of prompt, an extension, a outside take. We never see any other characters. There was a movie last decade a kid was named Icabod Crane, the present day descendant of Icabod Crane, and here comes the horseman. It's was the same idea told again.

They didn't even try because we're taught that there is no originality. This is why everyone is so cynical when it comes to new ideas.
But these aren't ideas they're just prompts.
Icabod's descendant named Icabod fights what Icabod fought.
An idea is a fresh take, something that stands out from the rest.
"But we see new takes on ideas all the time."
No, we see glorified prompts, told they're ideas, and that anything WE might try after is just a knock off the new thing.
Spinoffs.
Knockoffs.
Glorified prompts.
Why? Because THEY can't come up with new ideas, all they have are prompts. The more narcissistic the writer the weaker the prompt. So why should any of us be allowed to think we can have actual ideas?
So instead, they tell us all ideas are just prompts, they're not worth anything, so everyone should just share. This gives them direct access to the real ideas. They snatch em uo, copyright them, then claim everything is a knockoff there's original.

Did you know the original idea for Star Wars wasn't by George Lucas? It was written by another writer, who was told by Lucas it was just a silly prompt. Lucas then bought it off him for far less than what it was was worth.
Why would Lucas buy a worthless prompt?
Because Lucas knew it was really an idea.
Did you know that man later killed himself?
No one talks about it.
Did you also know Lucas also has a room filled with art, sketches, designs of worlds, costumes, aliens, monsters, anything sci-fi that he can classify as "Star Wars", even though they're all just prompts. We never see any of them. They're not for us. They're there so he can constantly say anything that resembles any of those prompts belong to "his" idea. He can legally sue you for you having a prompt that he deems similar.
That is greed and paranoia to the max.
A wretched hive of scum and villainy
And a perfect example of prompt vs idea, and why ideas need to be protected until they can be copyrighted.

Oh, and Indiana Jones is just a ripoff of several earlier works. And the parts of Star Wars that were actually added by Lucas are just from old war movies, some scenes even word for word. Remember the Death Star trench run? That's a entire scene from a black and white WW2 movie. "I'd say about 50 guns." "No, it didn't go in, just impacted on the surface."
Prompts, slapped on an idea.
Watch the review by Dark Corners "The Films That Made Star Wars"

It's about the mentality going into it. If you know it's a prompt then you think like a prompt and it's just a copy.
But an idea goes next level.

Dragonlance was directly inspired by D&D, but it is it's own seperate thing. Why? Because it's an idea.
I'll write a Dragonlance story.
No, you can write a prompt.
Because Dragonlance is copyrighted.
Why? Because it's an idea.
Prompts can't be copyrighted, but ideas can be copyrighted.

What a f*** mess!

 

[Josh2Write]

Nope! You don't have to register anything for it to be under copyright. However, you're copyrighting a specific expression rather than an idea.

The wise cracking insect themed superhero isn't under copyright since it's an idea, but Spiderman is under copyright as a specific expression of that idea.

When it comes to Disney, Star Wars, Marvel, or DC they'll sue the **** out of you, THEN look into it to see if it really was copyright infringement.

They want the copyright laws to be chaotic because they want to control as much as possible. And monopolies are supposed to be illegal.

 

[Genly]

Correct me if I am wrong, but copyright for the actual text is in force as soon as a story is written. It does not have to be submitted anywhere for this to apply. This copyright does not necessarily protect the ideas embodied in the text, however.

I am restricting my comments to the type of work usually undertaken by members of this group, that is, novels and short stories. Even so, I think that there are members who have had some experience with the more complicated aspects of intellectual property associated with film and other media. I'll leave comments on that to them.

 

[Mad Swede]

Correct me if I am wrong, but copyright for the actual text is in force as soon as a story is written. It does not have to be submitted anywhere for this to apply. This copyright does not necessarily protect the ideas embodied in the text, however.

I am restricting my comments to the type of work usually undertaken by members of this group, that is, novels and short stories. Even so, I think that there are members who have had some experience with the more complicated aspects of intellectual property associated with film and other media. I'll leave comments on that to them.

That's right, but in the US you then have to register your copyright with the US Copyright Office within 5 years of writing so that you can (if necessary) sue others for breach of your copyright.

 

[Mad Swede]

When it comes to Disney, Star Wars, Marvel, or DC they'll sue the **** out of you, THEN look into it to see if it really was copyright infringement.

They want the copyright laws to be chaotic because they want to control as much as possible. And monopolies are supposed to be illegal.

Copyright laws in themselves aren't especially chaotic. This page explains all the basics:

Copyright - SFWA

What can be difficult is judging when using a copy of a work is fair use, meaning:

- has the person who copied your work done something transformative with it, by adding value, meaning or expression?
- what is the nature of the copyrighted work? (It's harder to copy legally if the work has not been published, as the original author decides where and when the work should first be published)
- how much of the work has been copied? (You can copy small portions of a work, but you can't copy the heart of the work)
- what effect does the copy have on the potential market for the work? (Avoiding direct competition with the work is not necessarily a defence, and parody can be a copyright infringement)

You can see from these four questions (the four factors of fair use, as they are known) that there are quite a lot of legal arguments which can arise even when the basic law (the Berne Convention) is clear...

 

[Mad Swede]

It's a complicated mess fueled by greed, jealousy, and narcissism going back generations. The prompt vs idea system was created this way on purpose so it would be frustrating to tell prompt from idea. There's no quick answer.

Example: Sleepy Hollow. The original story is the idea, everything since has been some sort of prompt, an extension, a outside take. We never see any other characters. There was a movie last decade a kid was named Icabod Crane, the present day descendant of Icabod Crane, and here comes the horseman. It's was the same idea told again.

They didn't even try because we're taught that there is no originality. This is why everyone is so cynical when it comes to new ideas.
But these aren't ideas they're just prompts.
Icabod's descendant named Icabod fights what Icabod fought.
An idea is a fresh take, something that stands out from the rest.
"But we see new takes on ideas all the time."
No, we see glorified prompts, told they're ideas, and that anything WE might try after is just a knock off the new thing.
Spinoffs.
Knockoffs.
Glorified prompts.
Why? Because THEY can't come up with new ideas, all they have are prompts. The more narcissistic the writer the weaker the prompt. So why should any of us be allowed to think we can have actual ideas?
So instead, they tell us all ideas are just prompts, they're not worth anything, so everyone should just share. This gives them direct access to the real ideas. They snatch em uo, copyright them, then claim everything is a knockoff there's original.

Did you know the original idea for Star Wars wasn't by George Lucas? It was written by another writer, who was told by Lucas it was just a silly prompt. Lucas then bought it off him for far less than what it was was worth.
Why would Lucas buy a worthless prompt?
Because Lucas knew it was really an idea.
Did you know that man later killed himself?
No one talks about it.
Did you also know Lucas also has a room filled with art, sketches, designs of worlds, costumes, aliens, monsters, anything sci-fi that he can classify as "Star Wars", even though they're all just prompts. We never see any of them. They're not for us. They're there so he can constantly say anything that resembles any of those prompts belong to "his" idea. He can legally sue you for you having a prompt that he deems similar.
That is greed and paranoia to the max.
A wretched hive of scum and villainy
And a perfect example of prompt vs idea, and why ideas need to be protected until they can be copyrighted.

Oh, and Indiana Jones is just a ripoff of several earlier works. And the parts of Star Wars that were actually added by Lucas are just from old war movies, some scenes even word for word. Remember the Death Star trench run? That's a entire scene from a black and white WW2 movie. "I'd say about 50 guns." "No, it didn't go in, just impacted on the surface."
Prompts, slapped on an idea.
Watch the review by Dark Corners "The Films That Made Star Wars"

It's about the mentality going into it. If you know it's a prompt then you think like a prompt and it's just a copy.
But an idea goes next level.

Dragonlance was directly inspired by D&D, but it is it's own seperate thing. Why? Because it's an idea.
I'll write a Dragonlance story.
No, you can write a prompt.
Because Dragonlance is copyrighted.
Why? Because it's an idea.
Prompts can't be copyrighted, but ideas can be copyrighted.

What a f*** mess!

OK, to try to summarise what you wrote Josh2Write, when you say "idea" you mean the way the "prompt" (as you call it) is expressed as a story. Yes?

I know it seems a bit pedantic when I try to bottom out what you mean by idea and prompt, but as English is not my first language there is a risk we'll misunderstand one another if we aren't clear about how we're using the words.

 

[Reaver]

Greetings Scribes. I live in the U.S. so I can only provide info regarding copyright laws here. I'm sure that other countries copyright laws are mostly similar but if you have the info please chime in.

U.S. Copyright Office | U.S. Copyright Office

 

[Josh2Write]

Nope! You don't have to register anything for it to be under copyright. However, you're copyrighting a specific expression rather than an idea.

The wise cracking insect themed superhero isn't under copyright since it's an idea, but Spiderman is under copyright as a specific expression of that idea.

I think that dream might be a great start. Substitute a pig with the MC, have it be an airship or something cool like that, and instead of the lands of Satan, have it some unfamiliar place filled with danger and magic. Maybe that's the principal scene, with the MC swirling through the storm, stuck and just waiting to crash and maybe die.

I think as far as copyrighting goes, you have to submit the work to be copyrighted, the setting has to be something unique, or at least different enough from anything else written before, or perhaps based on a collection of characters. I mean, look at something like Harry Potter. Wizard school... done before... wizards coexisting with non-magic folk, any DND campaign has that. A dark lord; surely you must have heard of Darth Vader, or Thanos. Each of those things individually mean little. They are just plot points, parts of the story, but together, they form a whole that is unique enough to warrant copyrighting. This is especially true if it ends up as a movie; like with the MCU or the aforementioned Harry Potter.

OK, to try to summarise what you wrote Josh2Write, when you say "idea" you mean the way the "prompt" (as you call it) is expressed as a story. Yes?

I know it seems a bit pedantic when I try to bottom out what you mean by idea and prompt, but as English is not my first language there is a risk we'll misunderstand one another if we aren't clear about how we're using the words.

I'm still working it out myself. It's like a lightbulb came on and I'm still trying to find the right words.

Prompts are just pieces, what we today call ideas.
So maybe back in the day it was "prompts", "thoughts", and "ideas".
Prompt: "Did you hear? Old George took a spill with a suitcase."
First guy hears this and thinks it's funny, then starts to really think about it. "Say, I've got a thought." Shares his thought.
Second guy, after they've fleshed it out. "Say, that's an idea!"
Boom! Comedy play.
The idea is the part that stays with you, complete, even if not finished. The WIPs.
Pmmg had an idea stolen and it still effects him to this day because it wasn't just a thought, it was an idea. And the thief saw it worth something enough to steal.

Thought. Idea. Story.
NO ONE cares about thoughts unless they can become ideas.
Ideas CAN be stolen because they're WIPs.
Stories are finished and protected.

Because no remembers the original form no one wants to protect another person's unfinished idea no matter what copyright laws say, so they just "whatever" and wave it off like it's a thought. So now we have this massive oversaturation of thoughts because everyone is so eager to be acknowledged that they accidentally put their ideas front and center, not knowing the difference, all while the thieves and narcissists pick out the ones they know are ideas worth something.

Disguise your ideas as thoughts, don't divulge too much information, and never take them for granted.
Because for good (publication), or for bad (theft), someone wants them.

 

[Josh2Write]

Copyright laws in themselves aren't especially chaotic. This page explains all the basics:

Copyright - SFWA

What can be difficult is judging when using a copy of a work is fair use, meaning:

- has the person who copied your work done something transformative with it, by adding value, meaning or expression?
- what is the nature of the copyrighted work? (It's harder to copy legally if the work has not been published, as the original author decides where and when the work should first be published)
- how much of the work has been copied? (You can copy small portions of a work, but you can't copy the heart of the work)
- what effect does the copy have on the potential market for the work? (Avoiding direct competition with the work is not necessarily a defence, and parody can be a copyright infringement)

You can see from these four questions (the four factors of fair use, as they are known) that there are quite a lot of legal arguments which can arise even when the basic law (the Berne Convention) is clear...

Thieves and narcissists couldn't care less, because they're thieves and narcissists.

Public domain is for everyone.
Fair Use is prime thieving territory.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'm going to break this down so we can stop considering invites to visit the publishing world's version of Crazy Town.

You can copywrite writing, hence 'copywrite.' You cannot copywrite ideas, because there is no inherent value to an idea. You work and bleed intellectual property on the page, work that is respected in our profession. You cannot copywrite an idea. Ideas are ephemeral. They are butterfly farts in the wind. I can sit here and scribble out 100 ideas in an hour, and so can most of us here.

I can't help but wonder, Josh2Write, if you want a legit discussion of these fairly mundane matters or if you're stirring the pot for the mess and attention that may result.

 

[pmmg]

I dont know. Copyright is something the lingers as a concern for all of us I am sure, but really, I am too small potatoes for it to be a great one. With so few actual readers, the pool of people who might actually lift it is pretty small, and by they time it really gets notice...well...it would have its own popularity. I am not sure how I would know if someone lifted my work, and I am sure it would have to come from a fan base if I ever have one. The burden of proof will be on me to show it was mine first and that is if I want to take it to court. I suspect I can prove that, but it might end up being hard to prove for reasons I dont know.

I dont even think my book has reached enough attention to even show on a pirate site, which in part might speak to its success and the interest people have in it

All that same, I did purchase a copyright from the US, and will for all my works. It's cheap and if anything should happen, which wont, I will have an easier time proving my ownership. I also submitted it to the LIbrary of Congress, which is another avenue.

I am guarded about my works and ideas, but not super guarded.

What I have that is valuable is the skill to make more. No none who has not put in the effort can steal that. I have the more valuable asset.

So...yeah...there are some laws, and some ways to make things more formal. If I get struck by lightning and have to make a case, its still a burden on me to make it.

If you come to a writers site and are overly concerned with copyright and who might lift things, maybe you shouldn't be here.

 

[Genly]

Just a thought: we haven't heard from Steerpike for a while, but my vague recollection is that Steerpike had some professional contact with intellectual property issues. To get an opinion from Steerpike, though, a specific example would probably be needed.

 

[Josh2Write]

I'm going to break this down so we can stop considering invites to visit the publishing world's version of Crazy Town.

You can copywrite writing, hence 'copywrite.' You cannot copywrite ideas, because there is no inherent value to an idea. You work and bleed intellectual property on the page, work that is respected in our profession. You cannot copywrite an idea. Ideas are ephemeral. They are butterfly farts in the wind. I can sit here and scribble out 100 ideas in an hour, and so can most of us here.

I can't help but wonder, Josh2Write, if you want a legit discussion of these fairly mundane matters or if you're stirring the pot for the mess and attention that may result.

Again with the insults. See, no matter what I post you narcissistic ones gotta come poke poke poke. Can't help yourself, can you?

No, you can scribble out 100 thoughts. The ideas are the ones that become stories. So you three can have all the butterfly farts all you want, the rest of us have real ideas turning into stories.

So, ignoring whatever you three are, regardless of what the rest of you think this is a legitimate eureka I'm having, still trying to put into the right words to help anyone who will really listen, when I've finally got it sorted, from losing any more good ideas, and stop more writers from getting ripped off.

I'm going slow because I'm using my phone to write while you all type type type away on keyboards.
You take EVERYTHING for granted.