Why all the elves?

[Sam James]

Ah yes, I forgot about the Trell, so thanks for correcting me.

The main point I want to make is although Erikson's races share physical similarities to some stock fantasy races, is there anything beyond that? I am not sure.

Through-out the thread people have spoken on the Elf archetype. Do the Tiste really share any of the defining character traits of Elves? My answer would be no. Is Mappo a stereotypical ogre? My answer would be no, beyond his physical appearance.

You ask what makes a giant other than being tall? Slow and stupid is usually a big part of the archetype. Something the Toblakai don't show.

I do see the other side of the argument, if you have a race of tall beautiful people with pointy ears, but then happen to be cowardly and sly, have you still not created elves? Albeit elves with a twist.

But I think Erikson differs in his races enough to justify them not having to be associated with the stock archetypes. In fact he usually uses other archetypes to build his races upon (the Tiste Liosan are more akin to religious fanatics than to elves). Or tries to turn them on their heads (Toblokai are the romanticised barbarian juxtaposed with the harsh reality of barbarian life which included a lot of raping and warmongering).

This is just my opinion I do not think Erikson is a perfect writer, but I am a big fan still.

 

[brokethepoint]

It seems like there has been a couple threads dealing with "typical" fantasy races, which I really do not understand. Maybe I am not reading the same books or something. I just do not see the market being flooded with elves and dwarves, so I am not sure why it seems that people have a bone to pick with them.

From what I can recall these authors who are putting out quality work do not have an elf in their books.

Patrick Rothfuss
Joe Abercrombie
Brandon Sanderson
Scott Lynch
Glenn Cook
Guy Gavriel Kay
Daniel Abraham
Anthony Ryan

The only two that I can think of that are putting out work currently and that have elves are
Michael J. Sullivan
Terry Brooks


So is there really that many books that are coming out that have elves and dwarves?

 

[Steerpike]

There are a whole slew of Dungeons and Dragons and Warhammer Fantasy books released all the time, and they have elves in them. These take up a decent amount of the shelf space at the book stores and sell well.

 

[brokethepoint]

I would consider D&D and WH as a different category, would be pointless if it didn't have elves and dwarves and gnomes and halflings, oh my.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I would consider D&D and WH as a different category, would be pointless if it didn't have elves and dwarves and gnomes and halflings, oh my.

D&D is comparable to those old horror movies that fit all the traditional horror monsters into one plot--but even broader, since it includes those horror monsters as well as all the fantasy ones! (It's as lawyer-friendly as they could make it, but it's not hard to guess that the "Flesh Golem" is Frankenstein, for instance.) Of course, it also has plenty of more unusual creatures like the Githyanki and the Inevitables.

 

[Jastius]

I think people that seek out books with elves and the archetype races in them are seeking a certain type of book. I think they are looking for magic and a cultural connection that an industrialized society has marginalized if not eliminated entirely. I firmly believe that what we hunger to know is what we are most deficient in perspective of within our own lives. While most people possessing a deep familiarity with such archetypical persona do not seek them out specifically, those exploring the genre are drawn to them.

 

[wino]

It's because most "elves" are pretty much a carbon copy of Tolkien's elves which makes them boring and predictable. Why would I want to read about your second rate elves when I can just go read the LOTR?

There are much more interesting mythical creatures that are rarely seen in fantasy. How about mermaids? Or trees that are sentient?

Elves and dragons are way over done.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't think anything is overdone. A good writer can take any of these elements and make a great story out of them. And even with traditional elves and dragons, for every person you find who doesn't want to read about them, you can find another who does. There is so much variety to choose from, it doesn't make sense to begrudge anyone else their own taste.

 

[ThinkerX]

Regarding Erikson:

Tiste = Tolkien/Tad Williams style elves, with a heavy dose of earthside mythology. You take a deeper peek into Tolkiens realm, some of those elves act alot like the Tiste.

Trell/Toblacki (sp?) and associated varients = Ogres, again with influence from earthside mythology.

Jaghut = AD&D Ogre Mages, modified a bit.

K'ChainCheMalle = lizardmen, of a sophisticated sort. I'm reminded of the 'Slann' from 'Warhammer'.

 

[Philip Overby]

We had a similar discussion (well, probably many) about this topic before. What it comes down to really is certain writers have aesthetics that they may like to please. For instance, putting elves in their stories gives them a mysterious, ancient race (like in Tolkien's work) or guerrilla fighters on the fringes of society (like the Witcher books). For some, it makes more sense to use elves instead of creating a whole new race.

It's the same as if I said dragon. Certain people are probably going to picture the Western style, massive flying lizard that breathes fire. I could very well create something called a "Binglehopper" which is basically a dragon but with smaller wings. But wouldn't just be easier to call it a dragon? Or call it a Binglehopper dragon after the explorer who discovered it?

For me, if it's well-executed, I don't care what races are in a novel. I don't get hung up on if they are cliche' or anything like that. If a character is an elf, he or she just needs to be a good character, not a card-board copy of what an elf is. Same if I have a knight character. I don't want a flat, "save the princess, save the day, full plate, longsword" kind of character. Give him a bit more depth. Like a Sandor Clegane or a Don Quixote.

I think when some read the word "elf" they think "oh boy, another cliche'" when maybe they should be thinking "I wonder what kind of character this elf will be."

I'm going to label some of us here at Mythic Scribes "The Executioners." Meaning we don't mind what the content is as long as it's executed well. Hell, Jim Butcher made a book out of the idea of Pokemon and the Lost Roman Legion. And it's apparently pretty good.

So any other questions about elves, dwarves, pirates, ninjas, dragons, unicorns, barbarians, or otherwise my answer will always be:

"How are they executed?"

Execution>Everything

 

[Steerpike]

I'm all in favor of executing elves. I'm still pissed about the War of the Beard. Dwarves FYW!

 

[Mindfire]

Regarding Erikson:

...

K'ChainCheMalle = lizardmen, of a sophisticated sort. I'm reminded of the 'Slann' from 'Warhammer'.

Okay, see I've never read Erikson's work, so I'm speaking from ignorance. But this looks like the kind of self-indulgent nonsense that gives the fantasy genre a bad name. "K'ChainCheMalle"? Really? REALLY? That has got to be one of the silliest names I have ever read.

 

[Steerpike]

Erikson's names work fine in the context of his stories and world. They fit. Some people are more open to that sort of thing than others, ignorance aside.

 

[Ankari]

Okay, see I've never read Erikson's work, so I'm speaking from ignorance. But this looks like the kind of self-indulgent nonsense that gives the fantasy genre a bad name. "K'ChainCheMalle"? Really? REALLY? That has got to be one of the silliest names I have ever read.

...and I loved it. That is why writers need to worry less about specific opinions, and more about putting a story together for the larger audience.