• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

Are Elves, Orcs, Etc. Dead?

I am looking forward to whatever "new race" will become a highlight in fantasy. Yes orcs and elves did stand out but now they are fading away. I wonder what will replace them or even if something will? Keep in mind that while fantasy was around for a long time, Tolkien revolutionized fantasy so I'm not surprised so many authors adopted his creations. Fantasy has really come a long way so I'm not sure if there well even be a replacement per say.
 
And this isn't why it was so successful but the Elder Scrolls series stood out because they not only had orcs and elves but they invented races like Argonians and Khajiit. Sorry about the double post I can't go back and edit on my phone.
 

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
The problem with new invented races is that they're generally tied in some way - even if only conceptually - to one creation or creator. In some cases they might be covered by legal issues, especially in games, but aside from that, there's the sense that they belong to the creator(s) and using them is unoriginal or even plagarism. So a new sentient species would have to be one from mythology, and that's been well plumbed already.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I've always been pretty interested in yokai, or Japanese mythological creatures. I wrote a story not too long ago about a kappa that I thought was fun. Some people know kappa, but it's not universally recognizable I don't think. I've also become interested in monsters from different cultures. I stated researching monsters for a project I was planning called something like "Monster Hunting Around the World." It was going to feature stories based in fantasy worlds, far future, and contemporary settings but would involved different types of hunters trying to find different kinds of creatures. It's a project I still hope to do something with eventually as it'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

There are a wealth of different kinds of races in myths to draw from, so I hope some writers will get some good stuff going from them. If we all recall, the Japanese ghost story became so popular for a while that there was a trend of those type of movies for some time. However, for Japanese, it's just a normal ghost story. It can sometimes depend on cultural unfamiliarity with a race or monster that can make it interesting.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
They'll never die, nothing ever does. Stuff like this is like the tide, it rises and falls, and each time it brings something new to shore. These traditional races may not be in vogue right now, but down the road some author is going to say, "You know what? I'm tired of this grim stuff in fantasy. Where are the elves? Where are my dragons? Screw this. Bring on the Orcs, elves, and let's splash some more bright colors around into this mix."
 

Jess A

Archmage
I like to write stories about faerie-type creatures in a historical setting, because it gives me a lot to play with while researching topics I am interested in. Some are utterly monstrous, some are more civilised and cultured - and while some are based on real faerie myths, others are quite made-up. I've also drawn a little from Chinese mythology and other types of mythology. It's all relevant to my plot as well.

Humans are certainly strongly relevant to the story. Most of the main characters are human.
 

The Unseemly

Troubadour
Will they ever die? I think Penpilot got it right.

In many of the "newer" fantasy books I've read, there's always an elf or orc or dwarf or some other "Tolkienised" creature. I think it really depends on on how the concepts of the figures are approached. For example, I've enjoyed elves in some books better than in others. Then again, I've enjoyed completely made-from-scratch creatures, ala Andzej Sapkowski. Why? The concepts can be shoddy cliches that are/were (I hope) predominant amongst fantasy writing and that took away all the enjoyment. I was just reading the same old boring thing time and time again. But then I came across other books were there was a new, fresh, approach to the "cliched" races of fantasy.
 

Jessquoi

Troubadour
Personally I hope that these races don't die out. They are part of fantasy culture and I feel nostalgic when I think about them. Stories about elves, fairies and orcs have been told for ages so why should they disappear now because Tolkien got so popular? If writers refused to use elves or orcs it would be like refusing to ever tell kids about wizards or magic. These themes are part of our cultural psyche, why deem them dead?
 
Elves and orcs are storytelling devices; tools for telling the story you want to tell. I say use them if you have use for them, but don't put elves in your fantasy book just for the sake of having elves.
 

glutton

Inkling
Elves and orcs are storytelling devices; tools for telling the story you want to tell. I say use them if you have use for them, but don't put elves in your fantasy book just for the sake of having elves.

I have a male elf tell the heroine in one of my stories how she's all brute force with no grace to drive home what a crude bruiser she is. :D
 

Saigonnus

Auror
Humans, obviously, don't have that problem because we're fully aware of the diversity of human potential. You can have six nations run by humans and have them all be completely unlike each other; see also: the real world. But how many stories can you name that had two dwarf nations? And of those, which ones had significant cultural and societal differences between them? It's limiting. Elves have a bit more diversity, presumably because people like them more, but there are still traits that never seem to die no matter how dark or how modern the setting. I've read urban fantasy with elves that still managed to make them archers.

One could easily assume that because humans have such great diversity, that dwarves or elves would too. I think authors who refuse to change elves or dwarves are short-changing themselves on the possibilities of things that are possible. If you stick too closely to the traditional manifestation of them you are almost certain to imitate or rip-off Tolkien's LOTR in some fashion.

Whose to say a story about ONLY gnomes or dwarves couldn't be good if done properly. Of course I think a few types of stereotypes are overdone; elves being aloof and magical, or a dying race, dwarves as miners/craftsmen living in the mountains or underground.
 
I think many people have done elves badly, and that has devalued them. But they are as big a part of Western cultural heritage as knights, swords, dragons, King Arthur and all those other things that still resonate with our imaginative past. (I say 'our' as a Briton. Perhaps I should say 'they're part of my deep history, so they'll always have more magic for me than things that are just made up off the top of some author's head.')
 
Something interesting I've been thinking about recently. Are traditional fantasy races going the way of the dodo? Meaning, will one day they cease to be mentioned in the realm of fantasy discussion except for talking about the "good ole days?"

I find that as time goes on, some writers seem to have more and more aversion to having races like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. (basically Tolkien races) in their stories in favor of more realistic human variants. George Martin has shown to a wider audience that fantasy isn't all wizards and elves and orcs (although he does have elements very similar). I think this may cause mainstream fantasy to push more in that direction than the more Tolkien-esque tradition. The topic is often broached, "Are [insert fantasy race] cliche?" Why is this?

I think it's backlash against a long history of these types of high fantasy tales that may have caused readers/writers to not be as interested in stories with these races. There have been great stories told in this vein, but perhaps more writers are getting influenced by reality and books outside of fantasy than Tolkien, LeGuin, Jordan, and others. Maybe they think it's "too Dungeons and Dragons." And while I haven't read a Dragonlance book in some time, I still hold a fond memory for them. I think when you say "elf" nowadays it immediately evokes either "Santa's helper" or "Legolas look-a-like."

I find this kind of disconcerting, because I personally think there are tons of new tales to be told with these kind of races in them. New, fresh tales that don't tread on the same territory over and over again. And I'm a big proponent of some of the more realistic fantasy out there. However, I'd still like to see rich, fantasy stories with all variety of exotic and traditional elements in them. I want wizards shooting lighting from their fingertips and orcs bashing through a phalanx of soldiers. However, I like my grit too.

For me with such a wealth of history and culture to draw from, that we'd get more different types of fantasy creatures/races explored in new ways.

Do you use traditional fantasy races in your stories? Why or why not?

Also, are there any examples of writers you like who are currently (notice it is bold, I'm not talking about books written 10 or 20 years ago) using traditional fantasy races in their stories to good effect? (I personally like Andrezj Sapkowski's portrayal, while a traditional approach, he makes them fresh somehow)

I don't write about traditional races. Why? Because it's not me. Don't get me wrong, i think traditional fantasy is far from dead, but people are starting to actually evolve the fantasy genre. More and more people are realizing that by being inspired heavily by Tolkien (Including me) is that we have to put our own special blend that Sir Tolkien made so popular. The only thing close to any traditional race that i have created our my race of Eckrin, who have MAJOR differences to Elves even though they look kinda similar.

Don't worry about the loss of classic magic and big beats fighting soldiers, theres plenty of menacing beats inspired by trolls who plow through armies in my stories too. Continuing the classic fantasy with new fantasy. Keeping it real fantasy :)
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Just write what speaks to you. Traditional isn't dead. I could walk into Barnes & Noble today and walk out with 20 different titles currently on the shelves that use traditional elf/orc/dwarf type races, and mostly in a traditional manner. They sell. The new stuff that moves away from these also sells. It's all good.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Yeah, that's what I was trying to originally say in my first post. New stuff that avoids fantasy races is good and stuff that includes them are also good. There is still a lot of writing that uses these kind of things, but they're not mentioned as much at the moment, so sometimes it feels like there's none out there be produced right now. I'm sure that's false, but I try to keep my finger on the heartbeat of the fantasy genre as much as I can and there just isn't much mention of these kind of traditional races in the most talked about writing of the moment. It's kind of like when Japanese ghost stories became really popular. People were still making slasher movies, but no one paid much attention to them.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yeah, the new "sexy" stuff gets the press. But I was at B&N the other day and there's still a ton of the traditional stuff on the shelves, so it must be doing well enough. And even some of the new-style stuff that at first glance doesn't appear to have traditional races, ends up on closer inspection having races with different names that share characteristics of the traditional ones :)
 

Ophiucha

Auror
Yeah, I've seen a lot of things that use traditional fantasy creatures and then just change the names. The Name of the Wind has 'draccus', which is a large lizard that I believe breathes fire. Trow are trolls. I think zombies are in there, too.
 

Jess A

Archmage
Humans, obviously, don't have that problem because we're fully aware of the diversity of human potential. You can have six nations run by humans and have them all be completely unlike each other; see also: the real world. But how many stories can you name that had two dwarf nations? And of those, which ones had significant cultural and societal differences between them? It's limiting. Elves have a bit more diversity, presumably because people like them more, but there are still traits that never seem to die no matter how dark or how modern the setting. I've read urban fantasy with elves that still managed to make them archers.

Yes. This is a topic in itself.

Many of my other races are in various clans and differ in many ways. It works for the plot and it's fun.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I want to raise the question of why elves, dwarves, and their ilk even persist in the fantasy genre up to today. Is it really because these races have widespread fanbases, as if most fantasy fans would rather not read anything else? I submit the alternative explanation that the reason Tolkien's races and tropes are so commonly adopted is precisely because our culture holds him in high esteem as the quintessential fantasy writer, the guy every other writer in the genre should strive to emulate. If you use Tolkien to define fantasy, of course people will single him out as a source for ideas. If there's any real demand to take elves et al out of fantasy, perhaps we should knock Tolkien off his pedestal.
 
Top