A lot of people like that kind of fantasy. There are plenty of alternatives. There is no real reason that I can see to knock one or the other down. People should read what they like, and writers should write what they like.
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Are Elves, Orcs, Etc. Dead?
- Thread starter Philip Overby
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Alex Beecroft
Scribe
Seriously, I like elves. I would rather read elves in fantasy than almost anything else. (As long as they're done well.) And it's not as though Tolkien invented them. He got them from earlier literature and mythology. Yes, I could do without more bad imitations of Tolkien's elves from people who think it's all about being pompous and having pointy ears, but I write elves all the time and it's not because I'm trying to be Tolkien, it's because I find them magical in a way I do with no other fantasy creature at all.
By all means, don't write them if you don't like them. But don't try to take them away from me, because I love them. (Dwarves, trolls etc, I can take or leave. I think giants are probably due a makeover, and goblins are useful cannon fodder but not interesting to me in themselves.) But elves? You might as easily try to take the magic away from gods.
By all means, don't write them if you don't like them. But don't try to take them away from me, because I love them. (Dwarves, trolls etc, I can take or leave. I think giants are probably due a makeover, and goblins are useful cannon fodder but not interesting to me in themselves.) But elves? You might as easily try to take the magic away from gods.
druidofwinter
Sage
well my WIP has both elves and dwarves and i think its great! i do know what you mean though, brandon sanderson, one of my favorite authors, has nether elves or dwarves, simply diferent types of humans. elves and dwarves can be revived,i think, if they are written in a different way. no more elves in forests and dwarves under ground stuff. also i think they should spread out . humans do not all live together in one place. and nether would elves/dwarves.
- Thread starter
- #44
It's weird, I'm playing Witcher 2 at the moment and that game takes a pretty interesting approach to elves, dwarves, and the like. They aren't much different than their traditional roles honestly. But the way they're portrayed in the game (and Sapkowski's books) just feel fresh. Dwarves are still the kind of traditional fighting/drinking sort, but with a little harder edge (they use pretty foul language.) And some elves are integrated into human populations, but there's a group called the Scoia'tael which are kind of like guerrilla fighters. In both instances the races are still presented in a traditional light, but the way they're written just makes them stand out more. So honestly, I think if the right writer uses these races in their fiction, they can turn out pretty remarkably.
Yeah the idea that the genre has to make some shift doesn't work for me. Orcs, elves, dwarves etc. are popular because people like them. So long as there is a variety to read, which there is in this regard, who cares whether someone else might enjoy books different from what they enjoy?
Anders Ämting
Auror
I have a male elf tell the heroine in one of my stories how she's all brute force with no grace to drive home what a crude bruiser she is.
Surely there are brutal, graceless elves as well?
See, I think this is the crux - it's not that elves and dwarves and orcs become too common, but rather that they ended up kinda stereotyped.
You must forgive me, but that just reminds of of this Penny Arcade strip:
Penny Arcade - Fine Distinctions
Well, Tolkien just kinda made too strong and impression. He didn't mean to define the genre the way he did, he just wanted to create a mythological world for his made up languages. But then people started looking at his books and use them as a template for how fantasy should be written rather than go about it the same way he did - creating a magical world as a way of exploring the possibilities of their imagination.
Though, thinking about it, I'm not sure Tolkien really deserves the blame for this. I think I'll rather blame Gary Gygax.
If you look closely, Tolkien isn't quite the stereotypical High Fantasy formula; LotR is more like the prototype that the formula was based on. It seems more likely to me that it was Dungeons & Dragons that really influenced the early fantasy nerd's idea of what fantasy was - elves and dwarves and dragons - rather than Tolkien. They, along with people like Terry Brooks, made it into proper popculture.
Note that RPG campaigns - being bound rather heavily by rules and archetypes - do tend to encourage formulaic storytelling: "Your party meet up at a shady inn, and a man in a dark cloak approaches..." etc. I think this may have "trained" fantasy fans to think of fantasy in a rather confined sort of way, and some of them grew up to be fantasy writers themselves, so here we are.
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Saigonnus
Auror
I think done properly ANY creature can be interesting. I think the most fun I had with a gaming campaign was playing a Kobold Shaman. Sure he was relatively weak on the melee side of things, but the ability to summon creatures and heal was very valuable to the party as a whole. Elves in the Tolkienesque depiction is a bit overdone in my opinion (aloof, magical, immortal etc.) and I would enjoy a fresher and more creative depiction myself. Another stereotype I find a bit overdone is the whole dwarves being miners/craftsmen a living in caves/underground.
I certainly agree that the stereotypical depiction of Goblins are best used for cannon fodder, but whose to say you can't soup them up a bit and make them interesting. I imagine a culture of goblins that live more like humans, perhaps in settlements carved directly from the rockface of a canyon. They would have a strong religious presence within the culture like shaman/ medicine men. Perhaps they learn combat from a young age like the spartans and use magically reinforced obsidian and flint weapons to great effect.
Alex Beecroft
Scribe
I agree with all of that, with the caveat that although any creature can be interesting in the right author's hands, it doesn't mean that every author ought to have to write any creature that doesn't speak to them. If you're flat out not interested in something, no one ought to make you feel like you have to write it just because.
To me, elves are the epitome of the Trickster type - they're ambivalent and dangerous and highly attractive, and you can't know when you're dealing with them whether you'll come out of the encounter with unearthly blessings or utterly ruined. They're also the epitome of the creative force - which is why they're associated in mythology with Freyr, the god of fertility. So it's not like you can even safely say that you won't deal with them - because if you don't, you doom yourself to barrenness and stagnation. They're too hot to handle, but you've got to handle it nevertheless. (Like most magic, I guess. That's why shamans and priests get respect, because they have to handle this stuff on behalf of everyone on a daily basis.)
It does frustrate me that people get their information on elves second hand from Tolkien, because his take on them is actually quite a personal and different take on them, compared with the folklore.
I'm reading a really interesting fanfiction at the moment, which has Tony Stark going to study with the dwarves from the Mighty Thor universe. The premise of that was just... yes. Why didn't I see it before? Obviously Tony Stark is a dwarf, and the dwarves are whatever Tony Stark is (and I'm not referring to his height)
Transforming the world through technology? Something like that.- Thread starter
- #49
For me, the reason Tolkien's version is so popular is almost like a Pavlovian effect. If you held up pictures of different types of elves, you'd probably get different results. For instance like these:
Elf 1
Elf 2
Elf 3
Elf 1 or Legolas would probably be most identified by fans of Tolkien or fantasy in general of what an elf is. Long blond hair, bow and arrow, graceful, etc. This is the version of elves that fantasy readers would most immediately point at if you said "Which picture do you most identify elves with."
Elf 2, or a Christmas elf, would probably be most non-fantasy fans' version of what an elf is. In fact, if you look up elf on a search engine, you'll find this elf is the most frequent.
Elf 3 or Drizzt (a dark elf) would probably only be able to be identified with people who have more than a surface knowledge of what an elf is. Some non-fantasy fans or people who haven't read about elves other than Tolkien's version of them may not even know dark elves exist in fiction.
So in actuality, the mainstream would probably most identify elves with Elf 2.
Elf 1
Elf 2
Elf 3
Elf 1 or Legolas would probably be most identified by fans of Tolkien or fantasy in general of what an elf is. Long blond hair, bow and arrow, graceful, etc. This is the version of elves that fantasy readers would most immediately point at if you said "Which picture do you most identify elves with."
Elf 2, or a Christmas elf, would probably be most non-fantasy fans' version of what an elf is. In fact, if you look up elf on a search engine, you'll find this elf is the most frequent.
Elf 3 or Drizzt (a dark elf) would probably only be able to be identified with people who have more than a surface knowledge of what an elf is. Some non-fantasy fans or people who haven't read about elves other than Tolkien's version of them may not even know dark elves exist in fiction.
So in actuality, the mainstream would probably most identify elves with Elf 2.
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LadyofKaos
Scribe
I have various races of elves in my story - golden, silver, dark, wood, etc. They are as varied as humans in looks, manners, and character. And they aren't archers. They don't show up until the second book but they are an integral part of the worlds I've created. During the course of writing, I've tried to introduce races outside of human - for me it adds more of the fantastical to the tale.
Alex Beecroft
Scribe
This is very true, and if exposure to Elf #1 brings more people into the fantasy genre then it helps explain why there are so many (new writers') books in which the stereotype perpetuates itself. They haven't had time yet to read around the subject. But that just means that the books of those who have had time to find their own personal take on the matter are more valuable, for broadening and blowing those new fans' minds.
I'm more of an elf #4 sort myself
Feo Takahari
Auror
Ah yes, the old-school fair folk. I think Terry Pratchett summed it up best:
Truth be told, I'm not fond of this style of elf either. They tend to go one of two ways:
1): Totally incomprehensible. They might as well be a hurricane or an earthquake, so any reader interest must come from the protagonists instead.
2): Repeatedly described as alien, but written as essentially human--pretty and sociopathic, true, but displaying no personality traits that certain humans don't display, and demonstrating no reason why all the human characters look up to them. (Particularly irritating if elves killing humans is treated as normal and natural, but humans killing elves is treated as evil.)
Truth be told, I'm not fond of this style of elf either. They tend to go one of two ways:
1): Totally incomprehensible. They might as well be a hurricane or an earthquake, so any reader interest must come from the protagonists instead.
2): Repeatedly described as alien, but written as essentially human--pretty and sociopathic, true, but displaying no personality traits that certain humans don't display, and demonstrating no reason why all the human characters look up to them. (Particularly irritating if elves killing humans is treated as normal and natural, but humans killing elves is treated as evil.)
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Abbas-Al-Morim
Sage
Don't like elves that much myself. They're almost universally portrayed as "too beautiful, graceful, strong and magical". There are plenty of writers who stray from those clichés but a lot of writers are stuck in those. I'm more of a dwarf person I guess. Dwarves aren't perfect. They are greedy, they smell and they are rude. But perfect elves are just so damn boring. Whenever I read a story about a noble elf trying to save his noble civilization from the angry and evil Orcs, I stop reading.
I do like elves if they have some small sides to them. Or perhaps they're all vicious killers or whatever. I like the dark elves and the wood elves from Warhammer - but the high elves are cliché and I don't like those.
I do like elves if they have some small sides to them. Or perhaps they're all vicious killers or whatever. I like the dark elves and the wood elves from Warhammer - but the high elves are cliché and I don't like those.
glutton
Inkling
This reminds me of a joke that's made about 'Asian' people in one of my stories (I'm Asian and it's meant to be humorous so hopefully I can get away with this...) - an 'eastern' warrior who fights in the wuxia/wire-fu style taunts the (western brawler) heroine about her being strong and slow, and too slow for him... to which she retorts something like, 'what does it say about your people if our women are strong and slow compared to your men?' To be fair she is beastly strong of course, but more on topic I like it if elves are portrayed as similarly frailer compared to more physically robust humans. What I mentioned before about the elf's speech to the heroine in another story could hint at that I suppose...
glutton
Inkling
The stereotype in this case was used purposely to contrast against the mighty bar brawling brutish one.
Alex Beecroft
Scribe
Loathe though I am to say anything bad about Sir Pterry, I do think he went too far in the opposite direction. If you knew they were always bad, that would be much easier to deal with than when you don't know one way or the other. To me, it's the uncertainty which is the key with elves. Which is why they're so hard to write, of course, because it's all but impossible to consistently write ambivalent without eventually coming down on one side or the other of the good/evil spectrum.
It's the same problem you get with drawing properly alien aliens, isn't it? You can't make them too alien without (heh) alienating them from your reader and even yourself - ending up with something that doesn't make sense. And you can't really make them properly alien because you've only got a human mind to do it with.
But that's what makes it such fun to try
wordwalker
Auror
Then again, maybe the "capricious, Tam Lin-grabbing" school of elves aren't supposed to be as alien as they look.
I've always thought that type of elf legend was taking on a particular purpose: like a lot of folk tales are ways to talk about fears of storms, disease, night animals, and so on, some elf stories were partly about a village's nobles. Glittering, nearly-invincible creatures that ride by and, on the slightest whim, develop either a grudge or a fascination with a peasant and then drag him into who-knows-what? Even the concept of spending a night in Elfdom that's a century in real-time sounds a lot like how a villager-turned-palace-servant might feel on coming home and realizing how differently her old friends looked at the world, and now at her.
Just one more thing in the elven mix.
I've always thought that type of elf legend was taking on a particular purpose: like a lot of folk tales are ways to talk about fears of storms, disease, night animals, and so on, some elf stories were partly about a village's nobles. Glittering, nearly-invincible creatures that ride by and, on the slightest whim, develop either a grudge or a fascination with a peasant and then drag him into who-knows-what? Even the concept of spending a night in Elfdom that's a century in real-time sounds a lot like how a villager-turned-palace-servant might feel on coming home and realizing how differently her old friends looked at the world, and now at her.
Just one more thing in the elven mix.
Feo Takahari
Auror
Wow. That is going to be really useful.
wordwalker
Auror
Hmm, now you've got me curious...
SeverinR
Vala
Different species of humans can be cliche'.
Humans can easily be cliche'.
Its not that you write about the pointy earred elf or Dog faced orc(no offense if you are one of these), its that you don't make them unique.
Eclipse took the blood suckers and made them different, love them, hate them, but I doubt you could say they were cliche vampires. The writer took a romantic image, added a star crossed love story, threw in glitter to make them appeal to the girls, and sold alot of books. (girls love glitter)
The darker races could be the native americans, they could be the race that bigots love to hate. The evil that makes the world fear. Something more then/less then human.
HUmans are evil enough, good enough, and different enough, but there is always room to have a fantasy world with other humanoids.
No matter what you call them the species that is your story decides if they are cliche or interesting.
Ask this from you title, Are humans dead? Humans have had more stories written abot them then any other race or species. If they still are interesting, other species can always find a way to be fresh.
Humans can easily be cliche'.
Its not that you write about the pointy earred elf or Dog faced orc(no offense if you are one of these), its that you don't make them unique.
Eclipse took the blood suckers and made them different, love them, hate them, but I doubt you could say they were cliche vampires. The writer took a romantic image, added a star crossed love story, threw in glitter to make them appeal to the girls, and sold alot of books. (girls love glitter)
The darker races could be the native americans, they could be the race that bigots love to hate. The evil that makes the world fear. Something more then/less then human.
HUmans are evil enough, good enough, and different enough, but there is always room to have a fantasy world with other humanoids.
No matter what you call them the species that is your story decides if they are cliche or interesting.
Ask this from you title, Are humans dead? Humans have had more stories written abot them then any other race or species. If they still are interesting, other species can always find a way to be fresh.
