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Why I Like The Dark Cloud

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
Too bad so much "dark fantasy" isn't about overcoming the evil within, but rather about how awesome gratuitous rape and murder is.

None of the books I mentioned have gratuitous rape. The Game of Thrones show blows up what is actually written in the ASOIF series. Honestly, I was shocked at how much the writing staff put in the show.

Murder? I don't think murder is such a big deal. Whether the hero dies defending a village from an orc hoard or in the back alley of a city, who cares? As long as it lent to the development of the story.
 

Mindfire

Istar
Never come across that, and I've read a lot of dark fantasy. Do you have an example?

None of the books I mentioned have gratuitous rape. The Game of Thrones show blows up what is actually written in the ASOIF series. Honestly, I was shocked at how much the writing staff put in the show.

Murder? I don't think murder is such a big deal. Whether the hero dies defending a village from an orc hoard or in the back alley of a city, who cares? As long as it lent to the development of the story.

Martin was going to be my example actually. His world just seems so bleak and there's so much rape... But I'm really just belaboring the point now I guess. Martin and similar styles just aren't for me. Introduce a cool fantasy element, and then never mention it again. If there's any character the reader might like, then they have to die. Things like that are just not my cup of tea. There's just no... hope.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Martin was going to be my example actually. His world just seems so bleak and there's so much rape... But I'm really just belaboring the point now I guess. Martin and similar styles just aren't for me. Introduce a cool fantasy element, and then never mention it again. If there's any character the reader might like, then they have to die. Things like that are just not my cup of tea. There's just no... hope.

I find SoIaF too bleak - I'm enjoying them, but I wouldn't want to read this stuff by a weaker writer. There really isn't that much rape in the books, though. It's more about the death.

Sword of Truth, there was too much rape in that one.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I find SoIaF too bleak - I'm enjoying them, but I wouldn't want to read this stuff by a weaker writer. There really isn't that much rape in the books, though. It's more about the death.

Sword of Truth, there was too much rape in that one.

Yeah I'm never going to touch anything by Terry Goodkind. I got enough objectivist preaching when i had to read Ayn Rand in high school.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Whether fiction or nonfiction I'm happy to read books that present a world view or philosophy that differs from my own. But I won't read a bad book. :)
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Whether fiction or nonfiction I'm happy to read books that present a world view or philosophy that differs from my own. But I won't read a bad book. :)

For me, the quality standards are just much higher if it's too dark or I have issues with the book's themes.

I don't like it, though, when people talk about "dark" being realistic. It's not any more realistic or unrealistic than a light and happy theme. It's all part of life. So that's not really the issue for me.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yeah I agree on the realism. I find some writers drawn to dark stories because they think it is avante garde, or more serious, or more real. None of these things are necessarily true. The quote by Le Guin is on target.
 

shangrila

Inkling
I don't understand how anyone could find light and happy realistic. I mean, I like it as much as anyone else, but even a casual stroll through history will show that this world has been and, in many places, still is a really crappy place to live in. It's an unfortunate truth, but light and dark aren't perfectly balanced. The darkness far, far outweights the light.

Terry Pratchett says it best; "Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I don't agree, Shangrila. And based on my further attempt to read Pratchett just a month ago, I'm not inclined to take his advice. I'm not sure what people see in his books. In any event, that's one world view but not the only one. There's not much use in arguing over it, as people won't be swayed, but I know people who keep an optimistic, upbeat and light attitude through life, no matter what comes. I also know a few who have made it far into life without much misfortune. Further, there is nothing that says a novel has to depict the totality of circumstances in a life, and if the author chooses to focus on a light, happy, story, that's no difference then focusing on a dark, bleak one. Let's face it, most dark, gritty fantasy isn't very realistic to begin with, because it focuses on the dark to a degree far greater than what is encountered in ordinary life.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I don't understand how anyone could find light and happy realistic. I mean, I like it as much as anyone else, but even a casual stroll through history will show that this world has been and, in many places, still is a really crappy place to live in. It's an unfortunate truth, but light and dark aren't perfectly balanced. The darkness far, far outweights the light.

Terry Pratchett says it best; "Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

I don't agree with that. Good tends to triumph in the long run and evil is often self-destructive. But like Steerpike said, there's not much point arguing about it. The real question is, I think, why should fantasy aspire to "realism"?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I don't agree with that. Good tends to triumph in the long run and evil is often self-destructive. Really, the only reason evil still exists is because humans are dumb. But like Steerpike said, there's not much point arguing about it. The real question is, I think, why should fantasy aspire to "realism"?

It certainly doesn't have to aspire to realism. In fact, there is a great deal of fiction, not just fantasy, that doesn't aspire to realism. Rather, it may develop and comment on a theme that has application to the human condition.
 

Mindfire

Istar
It certainly doesn't have to aspire to realism. In fact, there is a great deal of fiction, not just fantasy, that doesn't aspire to realism. Rather, it may develop and comment on a theme that has application to the human condition.

True, but I agree with that LeGuin quote from a page or so back. We seem to have gotten into this rut, this pattern of thinking that only dark, gritty deconstructions are interesting or relevant. But these things come in cycles I think. Eventually some less cynical stuff will resurge. This image illustrates the pattern as it's been seen in comic books pretty well.

gl3p.jpg

I for one think fantasy's had enough deconstruction. It's time to start reconstruction now. As the TV Tropes page quote says, what's the point of taking something apart other than to figure out how it works and put it back together again better than before? Am I alone in this sentiment? Is further deconstruction desirable, or is it time to start putting things back together?
 
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I want both. I want both in existence at the same time, equally respected, sometimes even in the same story. I want a story that shows darkness and grit and also shows lightness, I want characters who are heroic, characters who have ideals, characters who are sweet but not saccharine, characters who accept a terrible purpose and struggle with the darkness that threatens to consume them, characters who choose the darkness and succumb to rage.

I want it all, damn it, and I'm not content to see just one or the other, and I'm not satisfied with arguments that say "it must be so" and only point to half of it. At the end, ultimately, I want the good guys to win. Those are my stories. But I also want to know that there are stories where the ending isn't quite as pat, and I want both stories to sit on the same shelf and I want readers to choose one or the other depending on what mood they're in, and not feel dirty or ashamed of the choice.

We don't really live in that world, which is why I think LeGuin's quote is so spot on.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I personally think what's attractive about these kind of stories is the characters. Because the characters act like real people. A real person isn't going to go slay a dragon just because it's "right." They need to weigh the options and figure out how it benefits them or protects the people he or she cares about.

Ned Stark for instance is a relatively complex character. As far as "good" characters go, he's probably the most good in the whole series. But even he has to make tough, questionable decisions. He has to stand by and watch "evil" men and women do things without being able to do much about it. As characters go, he's not "good" really, but he's not "evil" either. And his flaws are what make him an interesting character.

Take Frodo on the other hand. He has his struggles throughout the story, but most pertain to him holding the ring. In the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't call Frodo a "gray" character. He doesn't really do much that's morally objectionable and he stands out as a traditional hero character in fantasy. That said, he's still a good character, but a character from a different time.

I think the appeal of dark and gritty stories is that the world is dark and gritty at the moment. Just like when grunge music became popular in the 90s, I think fantasy is going through its grunge period. Will we go back to hair metal? Probably not. I'm interested to see if there is a fusion between high fantasy and this darker style in the future.

I think so.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I think if they do exist, they're few and far between. Average people would weigh options before they do anything like that. Such as "Someone else will do it" or "I'll be late for work if I kill this dragon" or "That dragon's going to kill me, I better call for help." I think people like reading about "heroes," but this tendency towards darker or grayer characters plays into the mood of some fantasy readers in general at the moment. Not to say darker or grayer characters can't be heroes, as they can.

I'll make a comparison to wrestling. During the 80s Hulk Hogan was the paragon of virtue. He did nothing wrong and was a role model for all kids. All these characters were viewed as being sort of cartoonish, in that they didn't exhibit qualities of most normal people, therefore making them larger than life and interesting. However, in the 90s, the birth of the anti-hero "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, showed that people were sort of sick of the typical one-dimensional characters. Austin did whatever he had to do to get the job done, which sort of reflected on the current mood of the audience: an audience that wanted grittier storylines and more realistic characters.
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I think if they do exist, they're few and far between. Average people would weigh options before they do anything like that.

That may be, but of course that's who the stories get written about. If a dragon attacks and 999 people decide to run, hide, or do something else out of their own self-interest, and 1 person selflessly goes off to slay it, the 1 person is the guy you write the story about. At least, if you're writing that style of fantasy.

In those "heroic" type stories, not everyone in the world acts heroically, but the heroes of the stories (MC, surrounding cast, or whoever, do).

Wrestling analogy aside, I think it is inaccurate the assume that these kinds of characters have to be one-dimensional. You can write a selfless, heroic character with depth :)
 

FatCat

Maester
The main problem I have with the 'good-guy' characters is the simple fact that most of the time I'm not going to be surprised. I know that if they see something bad they are going to be proactive in helping the situation. I know that they are going to win, despite struggles that merely exemplify their moral correctness, because they will do what is right and they're perfect. It's just not that interesting for me, I'd rather read about a character who struggles with himself/herself over what they do, what they've done, and why they've done it. I don't want to read about a saint who floats through the plot as the epitome of righteousness.

As far as realism in fantasy goes, how many people world build and research the real world to come up with ideas for their own setting. Same thing should happen with characters; any research into human history will show that we as people are conflicted between doing what is right and doing what is easy, and the human condition, in my mind, shouldn't be simplified into generic black/white characters. All that being said, if a story is good, it's good, despite what opinions I have. I'm not going to knock a story with a virtuous character, but in general I like to see conflict, both in plot and in the characters own morality.
 
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