World Building > Writing Skill?

[Ankari]

I would like to get a list of the top 10 most read fantasy novels and the top 10 fantasy novels of 2012. It would be interesting to see how many books are known and appreciated for their world building versus how many are appreciated for their writing skill.

 

[ThinkerX]

I would like to get a list of the top 10 most read fantasy novels and the top 10 fantasy novels of 2012. It would be interesting to see how many books are known and appreciated for their world building versus how many are appreciated for their writing skill.

Well, there are lists out there...some of which have been posted to this site. I would point out, though, there is a large subjective element involved in the rankings.

Out of curiosity, does this line of questioning pertain to your own worldbuilding efforts?

 

[Steerpike]

How many authors other than Tolkien are known first and foremost for world-building and not for storytelling and/or writing?

 

[Ankari]

Out of curiosity, does this line of questioning pertain to your own worldbuilding efforts?

No. I'm trying to figure out what makes Tolkien's works so celebrated even though I couldn't stomach the books.

How many authors other than Tolkien are known first and foremost for world-building and not for storytelling and/or writing?

I would have to put GRRM on that list. He is a great writer, but his world building is stronger. Others would include Robert Jordan and Glen Cook. They are good writers, but I think their world building is stronger.

 

[Steerpike]

I would have to put GRRM on that list. He is a great writer, but his world building is stronger. Others would include Robert Jordan and Glen Cook. They are good writers, but I think their world building is stronger.

Hmm. I wouldn't agree with any of those personally. None of them are in the same ballpark as Tolkien. I tend to put Cook on the other end of the scale, at least for his Black Company books. As ThinkerX said, there's a lot of subjectivity here, but I don't think of any of those authors as world-builders as opposed to writers. You might be able to make an argument for Jordan, as the series dragged along and the quality of his writing went down. Still, I think the characters make his story moreso than the world.

 

[Ankari]

I'm not implying they aren't good, or even great, writers. I'm stating that their world building is greater than their writing skill.

 

[ThinkerX]

No. I'm trying to figure out what makes Tolkien's works so celebrated even though I couldn't stomach the books.

The subjective thing again.

However, Tolkien always apparently regarded LOTR as a fairly minor tale in his world. The archaic style also comes into play.

I would have to put GRRM on that list. He is a great writer, but his world building is stronger.

Hmmm...I would have to disagree here. GRRM had some solid writers credits for film making. To most people, the appeal of 'Game of Thrones' is in the detailed characterization, the way he climbs right into the skulls of people as diverse as Jamie Lanister, Sansa Stark, Jon Snow, and Cersi. His world does have depth, though.

Others would include Robert Jordan and Glen Cook. They are good writers, but I think their world building is stronger.

Jordan I don't know about...but Glen Cook doesn't even have MAPS of his worlds. Likewise, while Cooks worlds appear to have a past, it is a patchy one at best, and the same goes for the breadth. His characterization is pretty good, though. This is another subjective issue. (I liked the Black Company series and the Garrett books).

For what its worth, I never could get into 'Dune', 'Harry Potter' (though I did see some of the movies), 'Wheel of Time', or 'Twilight' (though I saw the first movie). Nothing really 'hooked' me with any of them.

Early next year, I intend to take a crack at Kurtz's 'Deryni' series, which I apparently overlooked somehow way back when rather than rejected outright. From what I've seen, the magic system is much like what I finally ended up with, as are some of the social aspects.

 

[Zireael]

Harry Potter isn't really great in terms of worldbuilding. I'll agree that ASOIAF and the Middle-Earth are, though.

 

[BWFoster78]

I would have to put GRRM on that list. He is a great writer, but his world building is stronger. Others would include Robert Jordan and Glen Cook. They are good writers, but I think their world building is stronger.

This is all really subjective, but what I liked about WoT was the characters, not the world.

You already know my approach to world building - show only as much as needed to provide the characters with a place to play (okay, that's a little bit of an exaggeration). Still, if one were to write a fantasy story with great characters and little world development, I would guess it would be more interesting and readable than a story with a great and original world but with little character development.

I think any fantasy author that seeks to be commercially successful needs to be able to tell a good story. I also think that good world building can enhance the possibility of attaining that success.

Finally, I think that the author who builds a world at the expense of the story is not likely to find a wide readership, though the fans that author does gain are likely to be dedicated.

 

[BWFoster78]

Harry Potter isn't really great in terms of worldbuilding. I'll agree that ASOIAF and the Middle-Earth are, though.

I agree completely. I never thought of the Harry Potter world as strong. After reading all the books, and seeing the movies, I still have no clear understanding of the limits of the magic system.

 

[Shockley]

@ Shockley: I read all of the Robert E Howard books concerning Conan. The style may have the same roots, but their evolution is quite separated. REH wrote in a style that modern readers can relate and appreciate. Tolkien isn't. At least in my opinion. What makes one author's work greater than the other? The difference is the world building and lore associated with Tolkien's stories.

Howard definitely had his own style that I find quite beautiful to read. That said, there was always a plethora of critics waiting to tear him down. That's not my real point though: Once you read Dunsany, which could really be defined as any of the major fantasist writers, it gets in your bones. Howard and Lovecraft introduced that to American audiences, and it took Tolkien to satisfy the hunger caused by their early deaths.

How many authors other than Tolkien are known first and foremost for world-building and not for storytelling and/or writing?

Lewis, whose possibly less efficient than Tolkien as a writer.. Possibly Howard and Lovecraft, seeing how influential their creations ultimately were. Ed Greenwood for sure, since he can't write period/gave R. A. Salvatore a premise world on a silver platter/Became the D&D standard. Maybe Frank Herbert.

I definitely disagree on Cook; I think his real strength is in his writing and gritty characterizations.

 

[Steerpike]

Greenwood is terrible, but he did create FR so that may be a good example.

I don't see any of Lewis, Howard, or Lovecraft as primarily world builders. Even though Howard and Lovecraft had influential creations, I think the staying power of those stories came from the writing itself, and how the characters and/or mythos was presented.

 

[Zireael]

Greenwood is terrible, but he did create FR so that may be a good example.

What do you mean Greenwood is terrible? As a writer? His books are the best of the entire series of Forgotten Realms books, only Elaine Cunningham comes second. And as to the fact that Forgotten Realms isn't particularly high-aspiring - well, you can't blame Greenwood, he gave away the rights long ago to TSR (which is now WotC)...

 

[Steerpike]

What do you mean Greenwood is terrible? As a writer? His books are the best of the entire series of Forgotten Realms books, only Elaine Cunningham comes second. And as to the fact that Forgotten Realms isn't particularly high-aspiring - well, you can't blame Greenwood, he gave away the rights long ago to TSR (which is now WotC)...

Yes, I mean as a writer. Of the books of his I've tried to read, one was decent (can't remember which) and the handful of others I never even got more than a couple of chapters in. I agree that Cunningham is decent. Of FR authors, past and present, both Mel Odom and R.A. Salvatore are many times better at writing fiction than Greenwood.

 

[Shockley]

Greenwood is terrible, but he did create FR so that may be a good example.

I don't see any of Lewis, Howard, or Lovecraft as primarily world builders. Even though Howard and Lovecraft had influential creations, I think the staying power of those stories came from the writing itself, and how the characters and/or mythos was presented.

I think Narnia as a concept has been more influential than any of Lewis' writings, excepting perhaps his theological work. At the very least, it gave us His Dark Materials.

The first think about Howard and Lovecraft is that they considered their world to be one and the same - Conan, Cthulhu, Thulsa Doom and Nyarlothotep all reside in the same universe, and their universe has introduced (and reintroduced, in some cases) a lot of very influential world aspects. For example, Lord Dunsany's fantasy occurred exclusively in European settings (Gods of Pagena doesn't, but it's more a collection of poems) - Howard introduced the concept of incorporating foreign fantasy elements. That's why Conan fights in Sumerian temples, west Africa, etc. Prior to that, fantasy was really little more than retelling fairy tales (Dunsany's main work is just that, and that helps to explain what Tolkien was doing as well).

Lovecraft, of course, created the basic concept of creator aliens, eldritch horrors, dream universes, etc. You can say that those are just facets of his writing, but I do think that this background and reality he created are very much pure world building exercises.

 

[ThinkerX]

Lovecraft, of course, created the basic concept of creator aliens, eldritch horrors, dream universes, etc. You can say that those are just facets of his writing, but I do think that this background and reality he created are very much pure world building exercises.

A lot of later greats made extensive use of Lovecrafts worlds.

 

[Devor]

There's a few things about Tolkein that need to be considered when asking this question:

1 - As others have said, his writing style was typical for the time.

2 - Lord of the Rings was the first or nearly the first to include a large number of world-building elements that have become mainstays in the genre, not just "elves and hobbits," but even down to the idea of having new races, set in a new world, with its own history. And a lot more, I'm sure. What can modern world-builders lay claim to? Some of them get credit for a few things which help their books stand out for the moment - GRRM does a phenomenal job balancing what feels like a thousand characters, for instance - but there aren't quite as many firsts as with Tolkein.

3 - Tolkein's writing, while "archaic," was pretty good. A friend of mine pointed out, whenever a line in the movies comes straight out of Tolkein, it makes an impression. I think if Tolkein lived today, and wrote today, and absorbed a writing style of today, and wrote something for the audience of today.... the talent would be there. But many modern readers don't see it buried beneath the "archaic" style.

4 - World Building is something we do because Setting is a key part of a story. It can be as large or as small a piece as we need it to be, but it's a formative piece to understanding the characters and the story. We build the setting to shape the lives of the characters we want to play with. Can you separate "Middle Earth" from Bilbo and Gandalf and Aragorn? They all come together.

5 - Following off number 4, one aspect of LOTR and many other fantasy stories is that they kind of exhaust their setting. I don't really mean that no other story could be written in Middle Earth, but that everything about Middle Earth thoroughly comes together in Lord of the Rings with a feeling of finality and completion, something which normally happens for the plot and characters, but in this case extends to the setting as well. The setting is thoroughly ingrained into the story and it delivers something of an emotional payoff along with everything else.

When you put these together, I think there's a lot to be said in favor of world building having the potential to be a decisive factor in delivering the power of your story, which Tolkein was able to tap in to in ways that other writers do not easily match.

 

[Devor]

How many authors other than Tolkien are known first and foremost for world-building and not for storytelling and/or writing?

How many fantasy authors other than Tolkein do you read in English class?

 

[Steerpike]

How many fantasy authors other than Tolkein do you read in English class?

We weren't allowed to read Tolkien in English class. The teacher considered it not up to her standards, and had a standing rule about it since so many students apparently asked to read it for class over the years

 

[Devor]

We weren't allowed to read Tolkien in English class. The teacher considered it not up to her standards, and had a standing rule about it since so many students apparently asked to read it for class over the years

Do you know what her standards were? There's a lot in English classes that aren't really "well-written," there's usually more that they're looking at.