Would this break your immersion?

[fantastic]

I am planning to have protagonists enter the world (Like Earth) that is infinite in size. Of course, that means there are also infinite numbers of people, lands, cities, cultures,...

I am not sure whether this is a smart decision because I feel it could easily break someone's immersion. Would this break your immersion?

 

[Noma Galway]

Um...how are you going to handle this infinity? I don't quite understand. Does everyone know it is infinite? ((I'm sensing so many philosophical problems I'm going to have to work out tonight))...How do the protagonists know this is infinite? How are they entering it? If it is infinite, doesn't that mean it is everything, as well? Infinite in space, infinite in time? If they are coming from Elsewhere, what is this Elsewhere place? Is it in an alternate dimension? I think it really depends on how you handle it...

 

[fantastic]

Um...how are you going to handle this infinity? I don't quite understand. Does everyone know it is infinite? ((I'm sensing so many philosophical problems I'm going to have to work out tonight))...How do the protagonists know this is infinite? How are they entering it? If it is infinite, doesn't that mean it is everything, as well? Infinite in space, infinite in time? If they are coming from Elsewhere, what is this Elsewhere place? Is it in an alternate dimension? I think it really depends on how you handle it...

Protagonists from our world (Earth) are entering into another dimension. Dimension in which World (like Earth) is Infinite in size. Since it is infinite, you could say the world is not round but flat. But there are still cities, mountains, rivers and people.

But since the World is infinite, you will always be able to go further. Since World is Infinite, there are infinite many places. Infinite many of those infinite many places could be a place where people might live. So, the chances are there would be infinite number of people.

What do you think about this?

 

[phantommuseums]

I think this is a difficult concept, but in a sense it has been done with people entering the internet or cyberspace. With TRON, I understand that there is a grid, so there is an end, but I wouldn't mind if there was a constantly growing part of it. I guess you have to explain what is making it infinite, or explain what happens when they realize that this place is in fact infinite.

I just think it's difficult for us to even fathom a physical world beneath our feet constantly expanding and growing, especially radially, as if the globe itself is growing. But there are plenty of stories of multi-dimensional worlds that are infinite, especially using cyberspace.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I've actually seen this done before with a non-Euclidean world. It's theoretically round, but no matter how far you travel to the west of settled lands, you'll never reach the eastern settlements. This means that the farther to the west (or, presumably, to the east) you travel, the fewer people you find, and you'll eventually reach a point no human has ever settled. (There are also a lot of odd things to the west, like creatures thought extinct in settled lands.)

 

[WooHooMan]

Civilization can only expand so far.

Let me try to explain this with silly math:
The average walking speed for a person is 3 miles per hour. Which means 72 miles a day. Or 26,280 miles a year
Human civilization is estimated to be about 50,000 years old (at most).
If humanity was expanding at walking speed (which is probably way faster than it would, realistically), than human civilization would expand to about 1,314,000,000 miles.
1,314,000,000 miles < infinite
1,314,000,000 miles couldn't get you from Earth to Pluto. The fact that this world is infinite in size, almost makes the notion of distance irrelevant. Humanity (and life, in general) could only expand so far and so fast in a given amount of time. "Infinite" is almost too big to have any real meaning.

So, to answer your question, the only way I can even conceive the idea of "this world is infinite" is to assume the person saying it is speaking figuratively.

 

[Mythopoet]

I am planning to have protagonists enter the world (Like Earth) that is infinite in size. Of course, that means there are also infinite numbers of people, lands, cities, cultures,...

This is basically what Fantastica in The Neverending Story is like. It has no borders. The farther you travels you just keep finding new strange places and new kinds of creatures and people. My immersion was never broken because I went into it understanding that Fantastica is nothing like Earth, it is not meant to be realistic. That this was the entire point. I loved the book.

Now, if your world in question is supposed to be realistic within our understanding of the universe and readers are aware that it is supposed to be more or less realistic then I can see that harming immersion, because it wouldn't be realistic at all. But if your goal is merely to make a really fantastic fantasy world and you make that clear from the outset, I don't see any problem.

 

[WooHooMan]

This is basically what Fantastica in The Neverending Story is like. It has no borders. The farther you travels you just keep finding new strange places and new kinds of creatures and people. My immersion was never broken because I went into it understanding that Fantastica is nothing like Earth, it is not meant to be realistic. That this was the entire point. I loved the book.

Good book

But yeah, Fantasia is the only way you could possibly get away with that: just go all-out, mind-bending, leave-realism-at-the-door, suspension-of-disbelief?-better-put-that-crap-in-cryostasis, if-you-ain't-immerse-that's-your-problem fantasy.

I should also point-out that Ende, the writer, didn't make Fantasia infinite simply to give it a big scope or make it seem fantastical. Fantasia is imagination. It would've been unrealistic if Fantasia wasn't as infinite as humanity's imaginations. There's in-universe justification for its size.

 

[Incanus]

I guess it would break the immersin for me. A planet, by definition, is finite. Something finite cannot be infinite, they are mutually exclusive opposites.

It depends on the reader, but this makes no sense to me. Not that fantasy is always supposed to make sense...

 

[fantastic]

Civilization can only expand so far.

Let me try to explain this with silly math:
The average walking speed for a person is 3 miles per hour. Which means 72 miles a day. Or 26,280 miles a year
Human civilization is estimated to be about 50,000 years old (at most).
If humanity was expanding at walking speed (which is probably way faster than it would, realistically), than human civilization would expand to about 1,314,000,000 miles.
1,314,000,000 miles < infinite
1,314,000,000 miles couldn't get you from Earth to Pluto. The fact that this world is infinite in size, almost makes the notion of distance irrelevant. Humanity (and life, in general) could only expand so far and so fast in a given amount of time. "Infinite" is almost too big to have any real meaning.

So, to answer your question, the only way I can even conceive the idea of "this world is infinite" is to assume the person saying it is speaking figuratively.

Yes. Your calculation is correct. However, what if life started at more than one place? And what if people in my story are capable of moving faster than you assumed in your calculation?

I think in my case, infinity meant figuratively would be equal to infinity meant absolutely.

This is basically what Fantastica in The Neverending Story is like. It has no borders. The farther you travels you just keep finding new strange places and new kinds of creatures and people. My immersion was never broken because I went into it understanding that Fantastica is nothing like Earth, it is not meant to be realistic. That this was the entire point. I loved the book.

Now, if your world in question is supposed to be realistic within our understanding of the universe and readers are aware that it is supposed to be more or less realistic then I can see that harming immersion, because it wouldn't be realistic at all. But if your goal is merely to make a really fantastic fantasy world and you make that clear from the outset, I don't see any problem.

It depends what you mean by realistic. Is something realistic because it is not much different from our world or because it is consistent with its own rules?

In the story, Earth is just like our own. But there are special powers. And Protagonists are entering another dimension. Rules in this dimension are the same, people don't get any new powers and they are still the same. The only notable difference is, that unlike Earth, this World is infinite in size.

Bringing up the point that something is physically impossible is questionable because the same could be said about special powers or any fantasy elements.

Do you consider this realistic or not?

I guess it would break the immersin for me. A planet, by definition, is finite. Something finite cannot be infinite, they are mutually exclusive opposites.

It depends on the reader, but this makes no sense to me. Not that fantasy is always supposed to make sense...

That is the thing. I am not sure how to call it. But it is not a planet. That is why I used word World and described it as something like Earth.

It is not a planet but something with infinite size.

You say it does not makes sense to you. This means that it would probably break you out of immersion. This is very helpful.

I have to think of how to improve this idea.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

We actually have something rather similar to this "infinite World" in our urban fantasy series, and we don't have any issues with breaking immersion, but the reason for this is because we're pulling on tradition and then adding some a little of our own flavor as it makes sense. It works very well.

Our version is Faerie.

Within the Faerie Realm there exist uncounted smaller realms, each ruled over by Kings or Queens who possess enough sheer magical power to forge their realms from the raw gray mist of infinite potential with their force of will alone. The ruler of each realm shapes their kingdom completely according to their whim. Should they want eternal night, it is so. Should they want nothing but pink trees and red roses one day and the entire kingdom to take of shades of blue and green plaid the next, no matter how improbable or mad their desires, the realm can be shaped to meet them. And those who follow them simply learn to live with it, because in Faerie it is better, often, to have a mad patron, a protector, than none at all.

And within Faerie time itself is fluid and flows at different rates from realm to realm. Borders, too, can shift and change making it easy for the unwary to accidentally wander from one realm to another.

Of all these details, the only one that I can say with certainty is our own unique stamp is the "raw gray mist" that Faerie consists of. Everything else is based on existing lore.

So, the question you want to ask isn't, would a world (or realm) of infinity break immersion? The question is, is it consistent enough within your story world that the reader isn't jerked out of your narrative because it doesn't fit?

 

[WooHooMan]

So, like, why is the place infinite? What does that contribute to the narrative?

A lot of settings are meant to enhance a certain mood or illustrate a theme.
As I mentioned, Fantasia is infinite to demonstrate the potential and scope of people's imaginations. Middle-Earth, in many ways, is born from British culture and Anglo myths. The Hyborian Age is built around a cycle of civilization and barbarism because it's main character is a barbarian-turned-king.
What's your motive for making this place infinite? I feel like this is an important thing to know before we can contribute any meaningful suggestions or feedback.

Yes. Your calculation is correct. However, what if life started at more than one place? And what if people in my story are capable of moving faster than you assumed in your calculation?

I couldn't tell you. There is no examples in reality of the same species or civilizations developing independently of each other. Most ethnicities and even languages can be traced back to some common origin.
Humanity on Earth, supposedly, started in Africa then migrated north to the Middle East where civilization started, then migrated outward to the rest of the world. Even a lot animal species can be traced back to common ancestors in Pangaea.
I doubt too many readers will think about it but, y'know, even if there are multiple origins and they expand QUICKLY (both of which are pretty unlikely), I don't think there's any reasonable way humanity could cover an infinite plane.

It depends what you mean by realistic. Is something realistic because it is not much different from our world or because it is consistent with its own rules?

I'd say a little of both. Depends on what you're going for.

In the story, Earth is just like our own. But there are special powers. And Protagonists are entering another dimension. Rules in this dimension are the same, people don't get any new powers and they are still the same. The only notable difference is, that unlike Earth, this World is infinite in size.

Bringing up the point that something is physically impossible is questionable because the same could be said about special powers or any fantasy elements.

Do you consider this realistic or not?

Based on this, it sounds like you're going for a "high fantasy" thing. In high fantasy, there are meant to be two worlds: our Earth and Fantasyland, be it Narnia or Fantasia or the wizard society in Harry Potter. In these Fantasylands, you can break our rules of reality without breaking reader's immersion, assuming you can create in-universe justification for some of the more out-there elements. Most Fantasylands get by with excusing things as "magic" since magic, by its nature, doesn't need to be explained with logic or reason.
You mentioned that the major difference between Our Earth and This World is the size but to establish that This World is a Fantasyland, you'd need to create and establish a stronger distinction. That's why Harry Potter has magic and Oz has Oz stuff: to make sure you know that it's not Our Earth and, as such, doesn't conform to the same rules.

 

[Penpilot]

The short answer, No.

Like you said, set the rules and be consistent. That's all you need to do. You don't need to explain why things are the way they are, unless that's necessary to the plot. But if that's just the way the world is, then all you have to do is say, "The world is infinite," and then lay things out as you please.

Even if life started in one spot, over the course of time it could easily spread and keep spreading. If life existed for billions of years on this world, imagine how far it could spread. And imagine the implications of back tracking on this spread. What would the civilizations look like?

I will say you might want to think about what explorers of this world have done. On Earth if go in one direction and keep going, we end up where we started. If an explorer on this world sets out in one direction, they just keep going, and they will reach a point of no return.

 

[skip.knox]

I'm with WooHooMan: I fail to see the point. Why is it important the world be infinite?

As someone else pointed out, there's a real question as to how any character in the world would know the world is infinite. I mean, most primitive peoples think the world is pretty much endless anyway ... in the sense that a person could not practically travel to the end and anyway it's dangerous out there.

Simply telling the reader the world is infinite would definitely break immersion.

So, again, what's the point?

I can think of a practical reason not to do it. If you build an infinite world, your world-building will never end. And you'll never write a story.

Farmer created Riverworld. That was plenty big enough for him to play around in for years.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Like Skip Riverworld was the world that immediately sprang to mind because the river was seemingly endless. But, and it'simportant to realise this, in the Riverboat he reached an end so it wasn't actually endless. And endless is not the same as infinite. Technically the Earth like any sphere is endless because there is no point on it at which things start and end. So if you postulate a spherical universe you end up with a similar idea.

Infinite wouldn't break me out of my immersion in the story if done correctly. But it would make me wonder what makes the universe / world infinite, and how would anyone truly know? Remember even now we have astronomers and cosmologists arguing over this very concept of our universe. In a fairy universe with no space based observatories etc, I don't think they could actually make this assumption. All they could really say is that it's bigger than they can span. But they might have long philosophical arguments over whether the world is endless or not.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Incanus]

I'm with Skip here. I'm wondering why it just can't be really, really, really, really big--bigger than anyone can fathom, but still finite. It could just be that it seems to have no end, and the inhabitants of the world might deem it infinite, not really knowing. This seems like the best way to get the best of both worlds (yeah, pun).

Where would the world's inhabitants get the knowledge of infinity? Skip's question is crucial, In my view.

 

[Steerpike]

This is basically what Fantastica in The Neverending Story is like. It has no borders. The farther you travels you just keep finding new strange places and new kinds of creatures and people. My immersion was never broken because I went into it understanding that Fantastica is nothing like Earth, it is not meant to be realistic. That this was the entire point. I loved the book.

Now, if your world in question is supposed to be realistic within our understanding of the universe and readers are aware that it is supposed to be more or less realistic then I can see that harming immersion, because it wouldn't be realistic at all. But if your goal is merely to make a really fantastic fantasy world and you make that clear from the outset, I don't see any problem.

I think this is a key point. If you're writing science fiction that is meant to adhere to known scientific principles or extrapolations therefrom, then you're going to have a problem. If you're just trying to write a fantastic story (no pun intended) that incorporates this idea, then it's no problem in theory. I can show you example after example of fantasy stories that care nothing for the logic of the real world and employ the kinds of elements that can only be seen as wild fantasies. They work just fine because the author makes them work. There's no reason you can't also make a story with an infinite world work.

 

[TWErvin2]

If it were infinite and flat, there would be consequences to consider.

Ships sailing way would not disappear on the horizon and there would not likely be tides (minor). But the day and night cycle and where the sun stood in the sky would be different. Sun setting as we think of it would not happen. Or sun rising if there were no sun and darkness except for the stars, for example. One could set up a system whereby a moon, for example, interposed between the land and the sun to change the day to night. But even if it didn't, with the infinite, one would move away from the sun...or those farther away...say 10 million miles, would have a different angle to the sun with various consequences. And eventually, unless there were more suns hovering above the infinite land some places would be colder and receive less direct sunlight.

As can be said, fantastical worlds and creations are fine and a new dimension can have its own rules and physics, but being too contradictory (such as having the sun set in the west and rise in the east the next day) might cause a large group of readers to stop suspending disbelief.

 

[fantastic]

So, like, why is the place infinite? What does that contribute to the narrative?

What's your motive for making this place infinite? I feel like this is an important thing to know before we can contribute any meaningful suggestions or feedback.

I doubt too many readers will think about it but, y'know, even if there are multiple origins and they expand QUICKLY (both of which are pretty unlikely), I don't think there's any reasonable way humanity could cover an infinite plane.

Most Fantasylands get by with excusing things as "magic" since magic, by its nature, doesn't need to be explained with logic or reason.
You mentioned that the major difference between Our Earth and This World is the size but to establish that This World is a Fantasyland, you'd need to create and establish a stronger distinction.

Well, it is infinite because omnipotent deity created it infinite.

Protagonists will be very powerful, as will their opponents.

Why I want it to be infinite in size. Well, here are some of the reasons:

Protagonists will have a huge distance to cover. And they will be very fast, making the distances such as on Earth seem very short.

Also, characters will be far too strong for ordinary planets. World infinite in size would prove much more durable.

Places unlikely to exist on small planets would be much easier and more probable to exist on an infinite plane that resembles Planet Earth.

Idea that the existing country is surrounded by undiscovered mystery which is more and more unknown the further you get away from that country is also an interesting one and holds a lot of potential.

But it is true that it brings a lot of difficulties, if I decide for it. This is why I am thinking about it.

The short answer, No.

Like you said, set the rules and be consistent. That's all you need to do. You don't need to explain why things are the way they are, unless that's necessary to the plot. But if that's just the way the world is, then all you have to do is say, "The world is infinite," and then lay things out as you please.

Even if life started in one spot, over the course of time it could easily spread and keep spreading. If life existed for billions of years on this world, imagine how far it could spread. And imagine the implications of back tracking on this spread. What would the civilizations look like?

I will say you might want to think about what explorers of this world have done. On Earth if go in one direction and keep going, we end up where we started. If an explorer on this world sets out in one direction, they just keep going, and they will reach a point of no return.

Yes, well I intend to create the rules and be careful that the World is consistent.

But the thing is, how many people can accept the idea of infinite world if it is not some sort of magical "Fairy land" World?

Simply telling the reader the world is infinite would definitely break immersion.

I can think of a practical reason not to do it. If you build an infinite world, your world-building will never end. And you'll never write a story.

I understand what you are saying. But couldn't World building be focused on the discovered parts of the World?

Hi,

Infinite wouldn't break me out of my immersion in the story if done correctly. But it would make me wonder what makes the universe / world infinite, and how would anyone truly know? Remember even now we have astronomers and cosmologists arguing over this very concept of our universe. In a fairy universe with no space based observatories etc, I don't think they could actually make this assumption. All they could really say is that it's bigger than they can span. But they might have long philosophical arguments over whether the world is endless or not.

Well, this world is not exactly "Fairy Universe". It is still a World where people live, gravity works the same way, there are cities and other different places where people live. The differences other than the World being infinite plane (Infinite plane being the easiest way of explaining what it is like) are differences that one could expect such as in history, the way country is organized, culture and the number of people and places.

 

[Bortasz]

First People Don't understand Infinity. Even Professors of Physic and Mathetamic have problem understand it.

Take a Ring world instead.

Ringworld - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It size is big enough that you can put everything in there.