Writing What You Aint

[atlas]

I feel a bit late to be pitching in but I haven't seen anyone else mention this yet: definitely read books featuring other lesbian/bi/gay characters, or written by lesbian/bi people. There are lots out there, fantasy or otherwise, and I feel that reading even just one or two might be a good place to start, especially if you've never read or written anything with lesbian/bi characters before.

And if you want to pursue publication, getting a (I think they're called) sensitivity reader could also be a good idea. Like others in this thread have mentioned, you probably won't get everything right— I think the ultimate goal is always just to write a great character and avoid overtly offensive stereotypes/mistakes. A sensitivity reader might catch some small details that you could miss and save a lot of headache later.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Screw sensitivity readers, and I hope they're offended by that, heh heh. Write humans as human as you can and don't be stupid about it.

Some readers will call your character a slut when they slept with no one (true story). Some people think if a character insults another character, that this is the author's view. Treat slavery in a historically accurate manner, and some people will be offended because it doesn't represent chattel slavery in the US. Write a book with a black main character as a white and someone will be offended. It goes on and on.

At this point in time, if you don't offend someone, you aren't being read, heh heh.

 

[The Dark One]

Yes, I don't have any interest in sensitivity readers. I've always said that if your character is a real character with a genuine impact on the plot then people won't really notice their diversity or non-diversity unless you do something totally wrong for that type of person. Having said that, I have a lesbian friend who likes my work who is hanging out to beta read the book I mentioned above (but it's a long way from finished and I'm more focused on sci-fi than crime these days).

The OP was not really about avoiding controversy - more about the mechanics of writing something or someone beyond your personal experience.

 

[Phietadix]

Yes, I don't have any interest in sensitivity readers. I've always said that if your character is a real character with a genuine impact on the plot then people won't really notice their diversity or non-diversity unless you do something totally wrong for that type of person. Having said that, I have a lesbian friend who likes my work who is hanging out to beta read the book I mentioned above (but it's a long way from finished and I'm more focused on sci-fi than crime these days).

The OP was not really about avoiding controversy - more about the mechanics of writing something or someone beyond your personal experience.

And hiring a sensitivity reader can be a way to help do that.

A lot of the vitriol I've directed towards that path recently somewhat baffles me honestly. If it's something your publisher is demanding of you, where you have to follow the sensitivity reader's suggestions in order to publish, I can understand the distaste for that. If on the other hand, you reached out to someone on your own to look over your story to see what jumps out as inauthentic or even outright offensive, then that's just another tool in your toolbox. I see a sensitivity reader as a beta reader who has expertise in an area of interest to your story, namely the lived experiences of a group of people you aren't a part of. Obviously there's going to be some people in that field who are going to be overzealous in their suggestions, but there will be others who aren't. There's knowledge that comes with living with a certain disability, religion, skin color, sexuality, etc. that no amount of research will match. Why not take advantage of that expertise?

I understand that part of the opposing argument is that good representation is just making a solid 3-dimensional character, but that obviously isn't fully true. If you just stick a label onto an otherwise solid character, that doesn't mean that it authentically represents that identity. For example, I'm Aromantic and Asexual. That has effects on how I approach relationships in general, including platonic relationships. If you just write "Humans as humans" when approaching an Aroace character, even if you don't give them a romantic interest you're still likely to write something that feels off. If you just draw on what you know from basic research you could easily write something that feels stilted and sanitized, or even drift into harmful stereotypes. If you have it read over by someone who lives the experience then they'll have a much easier time than you knowing what feels off and will be able to help you adjust it.

As Atlas said as well. Reading works that are written by and about the identity you're seeking to represent is a good way to get a feel for how to protray things. If you want to know how to properly write a 40 year old lesbian's fist sexual encounter? Read how those who have had that experience have written about it. Not necessarily just fiction either, you can read non-fiction accounts of people describing the experience you want to write about.

You won't please everyone no matter what you do. But if you do your research and make corrections based on the experience of those who have lived what you are writing, then you can at least rest easy knowing you did the best you could do.

 

[pmmg]

I thought this was our sensitivity reader thread resurrected.

Still a big no on sensitivity readers for me. If in the future, some sensitive type gets a hold of my work, and wants to change it. I hereby publicly deny them permission.

 

[Prince of Spires]

The problem with sensitivity readers is that if you are paying someone to find everything they are offended by then you probably aren't going to get an honest review, but rather a mention of everything they could possibly be offended by. After all, if they come back with "everything's fine, no changes needed at all", then you'll wonder what you paid for and what the fuss was about, so they'll find something.

And doesn't even have to be a conscious thing. If you're a sensitivity reader, then you simply go into a novel with the expectation that you're looking for offensive stuff. Priming is a thing after all. So you'll find stuff you'd otherwise ignore.

 

[Queshire]

The problem with sensitivity readers is that if you are paying someone to find everything they are offended by then you probably aren't going to get an honest review, but rather a mention of everything they could possibly be offended by. After all, if they come back with "everything's fine, no changes needed at all", then you'll wonder what you paid for and what the fuss was about, so they'll find something.

And doesn't even have to be a conscious thing. If you're a sensitivity reader, then you simply go into a novel with the expectation that you're looking for offensive stuff. Priming is a thing after all. So you'll find stuff you'd otherwise ignore.

Well sure, but isn't it that way with any kind of critique? If you ask me to proofread a book then naturally I'm going to take a red pen to anything that sticks out. It's just focusing on different aspects of a book.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Well sure, but isn't it that way with any kind of critique? If you ask me to proofread a book then naturally I'm going to take a red pen to anything that sticks out. It's just focusing on different aspects of a book.

That is definitely true. Which means you shouldn't just blindly accept all editorial suggestions. After all, an editor is just another person with an opinion.

There's also a big difference in my opinion though. A sensitivity reader focuses on a single, very personal, aspect of the novel. An editor on the other hand looks at the whole story. There's always something to say about the overall story, while there isn't always something for a sensitivity reader.

 

[Phietadix]

I feel like treating sensitivity readers as though their only purpose is to point out things that are "offensive" is missing half the point of working with one.

Let's say you're an author writing about America but you've never been there yourself. You have an American read over your work to point out what reads as inauthentic. They note that you used secondary school instead of high school, you had the characters (who were meant to be fairly average American high schoolers) eating pizza with forks and knives, you give all your characters from Chicago southern accents, and you make every single character extremely outgoing and talkative.

As an American reading that story, none of that "offends" me, but I recognize that it doesn't belong. I live here, so I instantly can recognize the mistakes and generalizations that could have easily slipped through the cracks of research. These are also all things that some people will do. I've seen people eat pizza with a fork, like a monster, but if the author wants to present the norm for the culture I would inform them that they have failed.

 

[The Dark One]

I feel like treating sensitivity readers as though their only purpose is to point out things that are "offensive" is missing half the point of working with one.

Let's say you're an author writing about America but you've never been there yourself. You have an American read over your work to point out what reads as inauthentic. They note that you used secondary school instead of high school, you had the characters (who were meant to be fairly average American high schoolers) eating pizza with forks and knives, you give all your characters from Chicago southern accents, and you make every single character extremely outgoing and talkative.

As an American reading that story, none of that "offends" me, but I recognize that it doesn't belong. I live here, so I instantly can recognize the mistakes and generalizations that could have easily slipped through the cracks of research. These are also all things that some people will do. I've seen people eat pizza with a fork, like a monster, but if the author wants to present the norm for the culture I would inform them that they have failed.

Funnily enough, part of my new sci-fi novel is set in the US and there is one thing I got disastrously wrong. I thought the Rockies extended further west than they do... but they don't. (I refer to the foothills of the Rockies just east of Portland... sigh.)

Mind you, most of the reviews have come from the US so far and no-one seems to have noticed.

 

[Phietadix]

Funnily enough, part of my new sci-fi novel is set in the US and there is one thing I got disastrously wrong. I thought the Rockies extended further west than they do... but they don't. (I refer to the foothills of the Rockies just east of Portland... sigh.)

Mind you, most of the reviews have come from the US so far and no-one seems to have noticed.

I mean that one's geography, it doesn't count. How can anyone expect us to know where anything is in this country when half the important borders are just plain squares?

Plus, you got the right state at least. That or I also am vastly mistaken about the reach of those mountains

 

[The Dark One]

I mean that one's geography, it doesn't count. How can anyone expect us to know where anything is in this country when half the important borders are just plain squares?

Plus, you got the right state at least. That or I also am vastly mistaken about the reach of those mountains

You are as mistaken as I was. They don't touch Oregon.

Which I discovered about a day after it was published. I haven't mentioned it to the publisher...

 

[Prince of Spires]

I feel like treating sensitivity readers as though their only purpose is to point out things that are "offensive" is missing half the point of working with one.

Let's say you're an author writing about America but you've never been there yourself. You have an American read over your work to point out what reads as inauthentic. They note that you used secondary school instead of high school, you had the characters (who were meant to be fairly average American high schoolers) eating pizza with forks and knives, you give all your characters from Chicago southern accents, and you make every single character extremely outgoing and talkative.

As an American reading that story, none of that "offends" me, but I recognize that it doesn't belong. I live here, so I instantly can recognize the mistakes and generalizations that could have easily slipped through the cracks of research. These are also all things that some people will do. I've seen people eat pizza with a fork, like a monster, but if the author wants to present the norm for the culture I would inform them that they have failed.

Wikipedia tells me a sensitivity readers is "someone who reads a literary work, looking for perceived offensive content, stereotypes and bias, creating a report for an author or publisher with suggested changes". As in, they are very much looking for where you went wrong in an offensive manner. It's not just about did you get the details of your story correct or not? Which is what your example is. It is did you do so in a manner that will offend a specific group?

 

[pmmg]

Still no.

 

[Queshire]

Wikipedia tells me a sensitivity readers is "someone who reads a literary work, looking for perceived offensive content, stereotypes and bias, creating a report for an author or publisher with suggested changes". As in, they are very much looking for where you went wrong in an offensive manner. It's not just about did you get the details of your story correct or not? Which is what your example is. It is did you do so in a manner that will offend a specific group?

Well yes. Phi's entire point is that they're useful for more than just one thing. They still do the one thing though.

 

[The Dark One]

I really didn't want to start a discussion about sensitivity readers. I have no concern with others using them but not for me.

I repeat, my OP was more about how you put yourself into a different character's head when you aint that character.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Writing what we ain't....

If I was writing about a black, non-binary lesbian suffering from dyslexia and PTSD who works for the police in Chicago I would be doing everything possible to find out from police officers, non-whites, lesbians, dyslexics and PTSD sufferers what their day to day lives are like and the challenges they face. Google can sometimes be useful for finding out such information.

This research would give me the ability to create such believable characters that people in Chicago might point to certain people and ask "Is [insert name of character] based on them?"

Remember that it's whether or not such a character would be believable that matters. If that character is so real that it makes people uncomfortable because they share some of the negative (and positive) characteristics attributed to particular groups then that's even better because it means I've done my job as a writer.

Us fantasy writers enjoy a privilege most writers in other genres (except science fiction) don't enjoy. We can create settings, genders, cultures, faiths, morals and societies that aren't like those in the real world so the disadvantaged and marginalised of the real world can be anything but disadvantaged or marginalised in our fictional worlds.

I wish we would remember that sometimes.

 

[Phietadix]

Writing what we ain't....

If I was writing about a black, non-binary lesbian suffering from dyslexia and PTSD who works for the police in Chicago I would be doing everything possible to find out from police officers, non-whites, lesbians, dyslexics and PTSD sufferers what their day to day lives are like and the challenges they face. Google can sometimes be useful for finding out such information.

This research would give me the ability to create such believable characters that people in Chicago might point to certain people and ask "Is [insert name of character] based on them?"

Remember that it's whether or not such a character would be believable that matters. If that character is so real that it makes people uncomfortable because they share some of the negative (and positive) characteristics attributed to particular groups then that's even better because it means I've done my job as a writer.

Us fantasy writers enjoy a privilege most writers in other genres (except science fiction) don't enjoy. We can create settings, genders, cultures, faiths, morals and societies that aren't like those in the real world so the disadvantaged and marginalised of the real world can be anything but disadvantaged or marginalised in our fictional worlds.

I wish we would remember that sometimes.

There is a lot I think is correct in this response. Researching everything you can about the group is something you should be doing, regardless of whatever else you're doing to supplement. In addition to just googling and reading books, I'd highly recommend trying to follow some people of the group you're looking into on social media. Follow some Lesbians on Tumblr, check into some relevant subreddits, follow some people on Twitt. . . . follow some people on "X". While not relevant to the specific example here I also second the recommendation of "Writing with Color" that A.E. Lowan mentioned last page if you ever are approaching this conversation for ethnicity, race, or religion

I'm going to still reiterate my suggestion. Now under a different name. Of getting a beta-reader who is relevant to the identity you are considered over. Because you asked a specific question that I still think has by far the most correct answer being having someone who knows what they're talking about to advise you on specifically what's on the page. You will get little things wrong no matter how much research you do, and you lose nothing (except a bit of money if you're hiring someone for this role) by getting someone who knows what they're talking about to check your work. I'm calling this a beta-reader instead of a sensitivity reader now because, while I don't think I was using the term incorrectly before, beta-reader is the term that is much more clearly communicating what is being suggested.

 

[pmmg]

It will be hard, but I will try.

I am sure, if it came up that I was writing about a culture, or other aspect that was too far out of my reach, I would be doing a fair amount of research. Just included an amazonian culture, and did about 2 yrs of study on it (off and on). Is it right? surely not, is it good enough...I say so.

All this attention of how can I do this, and dare I even try when how can I know... I dare. Its just nature of the beast when attempts to be art imitating life.

Black, Lesbian, Cop with PTSD and Dyslexia....I am pretty sure I can come up with something close enough without having to live the life of a black, lesbian, cop with PTSD and Dyslexia culture.

I will accept a beta reader, but no on sensitivity readers.

 

[Phietadix]

Black, Lesbian, Cop with PTSD and Dyslexia....I am pretty sure I can come up with something close enough without having to live the life of a black, lesbian, cop with PTSD and Dyslexia culture.

This does somewhat derail the thread, so apologies to the Dark One, but I am genuinely curious.

Close enough for what? Because I can imagine multiple different answers to that question and I'm pretty you are probably correct for some of them and almost certainly wrong for others.

Edit: I should have been asleep over an hour ago, so while I am curious to see your answer, there's no more live back and forth to be had now