Elf Battle - Need Help!!!

[Phin Scardaw]

So I've arrived at a point in my story where a battle is about to take place between two factions of Elfs (Enhanced Life Forms - an acronym which I've yet to better but am not entirely happy with) which are essentially genetically engineered humans who have superhuman powers.

The magic system is very simple: there are god-like Sylphs who created the mana back when they first shaped the Five Realms of the Rion; the mana is a force which people can tap into by using the Songs also created by the Sylphs (the Songs are essentially spells that anyone can cast). Since the Elfs were created, they made Forges in which new Songs could be made, and so there is a new order of Songs, which humans cannot use. These are much more powerful.

So now I have these two forces about to face off, but this is no conventional battle! They don't just have to charge a battlefield and rely solely on swords and arrows. In fact, almost anything can happen - and this sort of strains the imagination, which is why I'm asking for some ideas.

This is what I've got so far:

The Elf Knights attack in traditional combat formation: nine Elfs link together so that the effects of the Songs they sing will affect their group. Six will fight with weapons while three others sing Songs (one sings an offensive Song, while two others sing to repel attacks). Obviously the most debilitating attack for such a group to suffer would be to lose those who sing, as they are vulnerable and vital. Fortunately, an Elf slain can be replaced by another in the group who steps in to sing.

The Dark Elfs are much more insidious: they attack with vim, but often fall back to where they've set traps for the Elf Knights. For example, there are land-mines or gas bombs or hidden tripwires they set up with Songs or magic items which, when triggered, cause those in the blast-radius to suffer total amnesia (thus forgetting all the Songs they know) or to turn to stone, or to be caught in a field of increased gravity/slowed time in which they cannot fight.

I know there are lots of basic attacks that can be fun (like elemental attacks: fire, water, etc) but what I'm hoping for is something more original, genius in fact (seeing as how these beings are all geniuses with faculties that we can barely imagine). I'm trying to think outside of the box in a lot of ways, too - not just the actual attacks themselves, but with complex strategies that include really involved contingency plans.

For example: if you wrote of battalions that could take to the sky as individual fighter pilots and with a single command could dive underground, barrelling through the earth itself where they could reform for a surprise attack, how would your commanding officers put such soldiers to use in their stratagems?

So far trying to envision the battle has been the mental equivalent of biking fast down a steep hill littered with rocky gravel, and the speed I reach makes my eyes blur with tears from the wind so that I can barely see what's about me. I believe the battle will occur at a high speed, with many separate kinds of attacks being launched simultaneously, and I think that such a conflict couldn't last for more than thirty minutes.

Scribes, I implore your aid! All ideas and suggestions are welcome - but I reserve the right to interject humour if I see something that strikes me as silly!

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

Mind control and mental attacks are something you can have endless gruesome fun with.

I can't really help with strategies or anything because I would need to see a map of the battlefield and know your songs inside out.
Consider drawing a rough diagram of how the troops of both forces are positioned at the start of the battle, and put yourself in the place of both force's strategists, because battle isn't just about two forces hacking at each other, each movement should be in response to something the enemy does, and so on, with lots of trying to give them the wrong impression and making them do the wrong thing. A battle should be a complex chain of reactions and responses, grabbing the initiative and all that. If you need to you could insert a hook, like a general who's loyalties are wavering, on which you (and the enemy) can base strategies around.

Anyway, yes mind magic, think about ways in which magic could really be effecting them on a deeper level, desperately trying bend each others minds into opening a breach in the defense or something.

Hope those very vague ideas helped.

I agree with Mindfire, Mana has a few too many RPG-connotations.

 

[Mindfire]

Please please please please please choose some word other than mana. :stomp:

Ok, I'll read the rest of your post now. :redface:

 

[Queshire]

Love the acronym, but it strikes me as sci-fi-ish. If you ok with that then, whatever. One thing I suggest is simply glossing over the fight as a whole. I'm reminded of the Time War from the new Doctor Who. We never see it, and mentions of it are vague and spread out, but from what we do know of it, it was bad and mind ****y.

Other then that.... Honestly I can't say... Maybe portray the battle from the view point of one of the fighters? When you're on the front lines you have no clue what's going on or what tatics are being used, you just try your best to follow orders and stay alive. Or so I hear. Have it just be a confused jumble of magic and weapons flying everywhere.

I also have to agree to changing the name from mana, not because of the rpg connections, but because you already changed magic to songs so it wouldn't make sense to keep mana unchanged.

Sorry I can't be more help.

 

[Mindfire]

I think you should read The Art of War. But aside from that the best advise I can give you is simple: deception, deception, and more deception. A good strategy always involves deception of some kind. Trickery, traps, ruses, diversions. You've already got a good start on that. Also, if these beings are extremely intelligent, they're going to try and think several steps ahead of their opponents. They might even predict that their opponents will see through their traps and instead create a trap to disguise another trap, which is actually a disguise for another trap, which disguises yet another trap, which disguises the first trap. And so on. Try watching Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes films for an idea of mental gymnastics in battle.

 

[Shockley]

I hate the Art of War as a primer for battle. You'd be much better off, I think, looking at maps of of actual battles and reading accounts of them. I'd definitely point to Xenophon's Anabasis as a great example of historical depictions of low-tech battles. Xenophon was one of the commanders of a Greek mercenary unit that found themselves deep in Persian territory and had to fight its way back to Greece, and the way he described their conflicts with other armies just borders on the amazing. I'm also partial to the works of Luo Guanzhong, who had a unique way of writing battles: instead of focusing on unit movements, he'd focus on specific generals (there are something like five hundred characters in the San Guo Yan Yi, most of whom only appear in one or two sentences) and just recount what they'd see or encounter in the battle. It's a lose, distant account of battles but I think it works well.

Since both books are in the public domain, just two examples of their style:

From Anabasis, Chapter 3 Book 3

The speaking was ended; they got up and retired; then they burnt the wagons and the tents, and after sharing with one another what each needed out of their various superfluities, they threw the remnant into the fire. Having done that, they proceeded to make their breakfasts. While they were breakfasting, Mithridates came with about thirty horsemen, and summoning the generals within earshot, he thus addressed them: "Men of Hellas, I have been faithful to Cyrus, as you know well, and to-day I am your well-wisher; indeed, I am here spending my days in great fear: if then I could see any salutory course in prospect, I should be disposed to join you with all my retainers. Please inform me, then, as to what you propose, regarding me as your friend and well-wisher, anxious only to pursue his march in your company." The generals held council, and resolved to give the following answer, Cheirisophus acting as spokesman: "We have resolved to make our way through the country, inflicting the least possible damage, provided we are allowed a free passage homewards; but if any one tries to hinder us, he will have to fight it out with us, and we shall bring all the force in our power to bear." Thereat Mithridates set himself to prove to them that their deliverance, except with the king's good pleasure, was hopeless. Then the meaning of his mission was plain. He was an agent in disguise; in fact, a relation of Tissaphernes was in attendance to keep a check on his loyalty. After that, the generals resolved that it would be better to proclaim open war, without truce or herald, as long as they were in the enemy's country; for they used to come and corrupt the soldiers, and they were even successful with one officer--Nicarchus,[1] an Arcadian, who went off in the night with about twenty men.

After this, they breakfasted and crossed the river Zapatas, marching in regular order, with the beasts and mob of the army in the middle. They had not advanced far on their route when Mithridates made his appearance again, with about a couple of hundred horsemen at his back, and bowmen and slingers twice as many, as nimble fellows as a man might hope to see. He approached the Hellenes as if he were friendly; but when they had got fairly to close quarters, all of a sudden some of them, whether mounted or on foot, began shooting with their bows and arrows, and another set with slings, wounding the men. The rearguard of the Hellenes suffered for a while severely without being able to retaliate, for the Cretans had a shorter range than the Persians, and at the same time, being light-armed troops, they lay cooped up within the ranks of the heavy infantry, while the javelin men again did not shoot far enough to reach the enemy's slingers. This being so, Xenophon thought there was nothing for it but to charge, and charge they did; some of the heavy and light infantry, who were guarding the rear, with him; but for all their charging they did not catch a single man.

The dearth of cavalry told against the Hellenes; nor were their infantry able to overhaul the enemy's infantry, with the long start they had, and considering the shortness of the race, for it was out of the question to pursue them far from the main body of the army. On the other hand, the Asiatic cavalry, even while fleeing, poured volleys of arrows behind their backs, and wounded the pursuers; while the Hellenes must fall back fighting every step of the way they had measured in the pursuit; so that by the end of that day they had not gone much more than three miles; but in the late afternoon they reached the villages.

From the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Chapter 111

21 As soon as Deng Ai had heard that the enemy would come out at Qishan, he had camped there with his colleague Chen Tai. But when days had passed without anyone coming to fling a challenge, he sent out spies to find out where the Shu army was lurking. They could find nothing, and so Deng Ai went to the summit of a hill to look around.
22 He came to the conclusion, saying, "Jiang Wei must not be in this camp. He must be on his way to capture Nanan. Those soldiers in the Shu camp were nothing but a feint, accentuated by the daily change of uniform. Going to and fro for days, the horses look tired, and their leaders are certainly none of the ablest. Therefore, General, I advise an attack here. If that succeeds, the Dongting road can be occupied, and Jiang Wei will be unable to retreat. I think I ought to try to relieve Nanan. I will go by the Wucheng Mountain, and if I occupy that, the enemy will try to take Shanggui. Near that place is a narrow and precipitous valley called Block Valley, just the place for an ambush, where I shall lie in wait till Jiang Wei comes to take the Wucheng Mountain."
23 Chen Tai replied, "I have been here over twenty years and have never known so much of the military possibilities of the place. You are very wonderful and must carry out your plan."
24 So Deng Ai marched toward Nanan by double marches. Soon they came to the Wucheng Mountain, where they camped without opposition. He sent his son Deng Zhong and Shi Zuan, each leading five thousand troops, to lie in wait in the Block Valley and not to betray their presence.
25 In the meantime Jiang Wei was marching between Dongting and Nanan.
26 Near the Wucheng Mountain, he turned to Xiahou Ba and said, "That hill is our point, and Nanan is close. I fear lest the artful Deng Ai may seize and fortify it."
27 They hastened, anxious to reach the hill before the enemy. But it was not to be. Presently they heard the roar of bombs and the beating of drums, and then flags and banners appeared, all of Wei. And among them fluttered the leader's standard, bearing two words Deng Ai.
28 This was a sad disappointment. The army of Shu halted, and veteran soldiers of Wei came rushing down from various points on the hill, too many for the troops of Shu to drive back. So the advance guard was defeated. Jiang Wei went to their help with his central body, but when he got near, the soldiers of Wei had retreated up to the hill.
29 Jiang Wei went on to the foot of the hill and challenged, but no one came out to accept. The soldiers of Shu began to shout abuse, and kept it up till late in the day, but they failed to provoke a fight. As the army of Shu began to retire, the Wei drums beat furiously, yet no one appeared. Jiang Wei turned about to ascend the hill, but its defenders prevented that by stones thrown from above. He hung on till the third watch, when he tried again. But he failed. Thereupon he went down the hill and halted, bidding his soldiers build a barricade of wood and boulders. The troops of Wei came on again, and the Shu troops scrambled to run to the old camp.

Two things that I can't really share on the forum: Bernard Cornwell does a damn fantastic battle scene in all of his books. The Total War games are great for getting a feel for tactics.

 

[King Raven Stark]

Use something like Wildfire from A Song of Ice and Fire during the Battle of the Blackwater where large jars of fire were thrown onto invading ships and burned so fast and then spread all over and out of control

 

[Mindfire]

Use something like Wildfire from A Song of Ice and Fire during the Battle of the Blackwater where large jars of fire were thrown onto invading ships and burned so fast and then spread all over and out of control

You mean Greek Fire.

 

[King Raven Stark]

@ Mindfire no I mean Wildfire

 

[Steerpike]

There is a great book that goes through five or six important battles at various times in history, telling them from the perspective of the soldiers. I'll see if I can track down the title. That might be a useful tool as well.

 

[Mindfire]

@ Mindfire no I mean Wildfire

But it sounds exactly like Greek Fire. Btw your name has inspired me to create a slightly insane character and name him Stark Raven. Just for the pun.

 

[King Raven Stark]

no you won't

 

[gavintonks]

I think the problem is you do not have a battleground, as first how do they come together, so that will define things like line of sight etc, as I am sure its not a rugby field with opposing forces.
The next is the protagonist and who is defending as defending is very different to attacking,so again there will be a strategy in lay.
The third is what are they after, as this will determine how hard people will fight and how aggressive the fight will be

 

[Mindfire]

no you won't

Watch me. He won't be a king though. Maybe an eccentric warlord.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

I think the problem is you do not have a battleground, as first how do they come together, so that will define things like line of sight etc, as I am sure its not a rugby field with opposing forces.
The next is the protagonist and who is defending as defending is very different to attacking,so again there will be a strategy in lay.
The third is what are they after, as this will determine how hard people will fight and how aggressive the fight will be

The battleground is pretty much an open field: the two forces meet on high moorlands which have little or no vegetation. There are five deep ravines; over the central ravine is built a great Forge in which new Songs can be created - this is the objective. The Forge is defended by the Elf Knights, which are the greater force, but will ultimately be lost to the Dark Elfs.

There are two protagonists, one on either side. This is not a decisive battle. The Dark Elfs are far more desperate; the Elf Knights control four other Forges.

I suppose I was inviting those interested posting in this thread not so much to recommend material to read, but just to brainstorm in general.

 

[King Raven Stark]

if he's a warlord fine be me do ya thing

 

[Shockley]

I suppose I was inviting those interested posting in this thread not so much to recommend material to read, but just to brainstorm in general.

While I understand that, that is not how I give advice. I don't like giving other people my ideas since, well, they're my ideas and they won't fit into your story. So I prefer to give you things to read/look at so you can create your own ideas and concepts.

 

[Queshire]

I don't like giving ideas unless I have all the information. I'm a bit curious how the elf knights loose though. They have the number advantage, only have to worry about defending, I'm guess they've controlled the forge for awhile so they have the advantage of knowing the terrain and setting traps. That's... a lot of things in their favor. While the story of a smaller force beating a larger force certainly has a poetic appeal, I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen much.

Since the Elf Knights are only concerned with defending the Forge the majority of their forces will be either protecting it or neccesary chock points leading to it, with various traps set out around the area. The Ravines would work for both of those if they are forced to go along the ravines.

The Dark Elves have their work cut out for them. They will NOT win in a straight out brawl, no matter how romantic it is, the lesser force most often looses in a fair fight, particularily if they are on the attacking side. I'd suggest a seige, but again, I doubt that would work with the numbers disadvantage. I think the most effective tatic for the Dark Elves would be splitting up into a number of highly mobile units and waging a gurellia, hit and run type tatic. Death by a thousand papercuts. If desperate they might not have the patience for that. Another option might be to cause a distraction while sending a spy in to somehow sabotage the forge and elf knight forces, maybe take out the leadership, change orders, etc.

In light of that, I agree that magic is the key, but I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion. What can it do? What are the limitations? Are both sides equal in the magic they have, or does one side have the advantage? If the Elf knights control the forge, does that mean they can create new spells mid battle?

 

[Jon_Chong]

Here's a few things to jump start the brain storming. This will helps us tailor some cool ideas to better fit your needs.

1.) What's the attitude/morale of the the two forces? Morale is more often than not the deciding factor in engagements, not flashy techniques and strategems. Well, morale and men, really. Though flashy techniques do help.

2.) What's the kind of tone you're trying to set here? Is it grim and dirty, like the press of the phalanx? Or is it the chaotic brawl of the middle ages? Perhaps a more clinical and methodical approach is favored here. Or maybe it's wildly fantastical with crazy ass Xanatos gambits everywhere!

Once I have these two answered, I can start formulating some concrete ideas to shoot at you