Praise Scene

[BWFoster78]

For lack of a better word/terminology...

I've observed, mainly in John Ringo's works, some pretty effective scenes where he creates a "warm fuzzy" in the reader by having people in his scene talk about how awesome the main character is. Has anyone tried to use this technique?

I attempted to incorporate it into a scene, but I don't think I achieved what I hoped. Just looking for a bit of discussion on it.

 

[Xaysai]

Brian, I don't really have an answer, but I did put some thought into this.

While snooping through some of the books I could think of where there were scenes such as what you describe, I found this quote which I loved from MC Logen Nine-Fingers in Joe Abercombie's First Law Trilogy:

“I’ve fought in three campaigns,” he began. “In seven pitched battles. In countless raids and skirmishes and desperate defences, and bloody actions of every kind. I’ve fought in the driving snow, the blasting wind, the middle of the night. I’ve been fighting all my life, one enemy or another, one friend or another. I’ve known little else. I’ve seen men killed for a word, for a look, for nothing at all. A woman tried to stab me once for killing her husband, and I threw her down a well. And that’s far from the worst of it. Life used to be cheap as dirt to me. Cheaper.

“I’ve fought ten single combats and I won them all, but I fought on the wrong side and for all the wrong reasons. I’ve been ruthless, and brutal, and a coward. I’ve stabbed men in the back, burned them, drowned them, crushed them with rocks, killed them asleep, unarmed, or running away. I’ve run away myself more than once. I’ve pissed myself with fear. I’ve begged for my life. I’ve been wounded, often, and badly, and screamed and cried like a baby whose mother took her tit away. I’ve no doubt the world would be a better place if I’d been killed years ago, but I haven’t been, and I don’t know why.”

He looked down at his hands, pink and clean on the stone. “There are few men with more blood on their hands than me. None, that I know of. The Bloody-Nine they call me, my enemies, and there’s a lot of ’em. Always more enemies, and fewer friends. Blood gets you nothing but more blood. It follows me now, always, like my shadow, and like my shadow I can never be free of it. I should never be free of it. I’ve earned it. I’ve deserved it. I’ve sought it out. Such is my punishment.”

In this series most of the other characters either think Logen Nine-Fingers is a hero or a villain, so when they talk about him there is both sides/perspectives of the argument present so it's not like all of the characters fawning over how amazing he is. It's done in a way in which you know the guy has done some absolutely grievous things, but you still root for him.

It just seems like unless you want all the characters to fawn over the MC, the best thing to do is find a way to temper it out.

However, I think I am answering a question that nobody asked...

 

[Anders Ämting]

I think the important thing is that it doesn't seem forced. You don't want the readers to feel you're pushing this totally awesome MC on them. Some might object to that and feel your are trying too hard.

Trick is to make it seem natural that these other characters would start contemplating what a totally rad dude the MC is, without going all overboard with the superlatives. Kinda like: "Man, don't tell him I said this, but Hero Protagonist is really kinda amazing, you know?" and the other guy is: "Yeah, I gotta admit, we wouldn't have made it this far without him." And so on.

I also think it's probably best to do this after the MC is properly established as an impressive and respectable character. It only works if the reader already agrees with it.

 

[BWFoster78]

I think it works in the following manner:

The reader gets to know the MC and goes through a lot of struggles.
The readers comes to identify with the MC.
Then, when another character details how awesome what the MC did was, the reader feels a sense of pride b/c they were right there doing it too.

 

[Penpilot]

To me, some of the obvious issues I'd worry about is if what's being praised worthy of being praised. And even if it is, the scene might still come off as almost bragging if it's not handled right.

The way I'd handle something like this, which may or may not fit in style of what others write, is counterbalance the praise. I'd undercut it with humor, pointing out some not so great facts, or just counter it with a sobering fact. For example

Sidekick: ...so after Crimebuster kicks the crap out of the 5th bank robber and grabs the 6th in a headlock, the 7th puts a gun to his skull and tells him to back the frak away. Then Crimebuster, all cool and badass, goes 'I'm quick enough to beat the crap out of six of your friends, what makes you think I'm not quick enough for seven? You put down the gun, and I won't punch you in the nuts.' And would you believe it. The robber totally puts the gun down. Crimebuster is awesome.

Crimebuster: Yeah, but did you also notice I needed to stop at a gas station after? Crimebuster needed a change of underwear. Point blank, nobody dodges a bullet, not even a superhero.

Anyway, corny, but it's the general approach I'd take.

 

[Alex97]

If not overdone this can work. Why not have the MC's opponent indirectly praise him/her. For example: 'Damn Fred and his cunning ways!' The opposing character has clearly been angered by the MC which shows that the MC has had some success. More importantly the character has praised the MC but doesn't admire him. This is a pretty good way to praise a character but avoid all the soppy stuff.

 

[Zero Angel]

For lack of a better word/terminology...

I've observed, mainly in John Ringo's works, some pretty effective scenes where he creates a "warm fuzzy" in the reader by having people in his scene talk about how awesome the main character is. Has anyone tried to use this technique?

I attempted to incorporate it into a scene, but I don't think I achieved what I hoped. Just looking for a bit of discussion on it.

Yes. I use this actually. But I think it always helps to put things into perspective. I almost universally appreciate things more when I hear others talk about how amazing something is or what went into it. I've especially noticed this in good commentaries and interviews for TV and movies.

 

[BWFoster78]

To me, some of the obvious issues I'd worry about is if what's being praised worthy of being praised. And even if it is, the scene might still come off as almost bragging if it's not handled right.

The way I'd handle something like this, which may or may not fit in style of what others write, is counterbalance the praise. I'd undercut it with humor, pointing out some not so great facts, or just counter it with a sobering fact. For example

Sidekick: ...so after Crimebuster kicks the crap out of the 5th bank robber and grabs the 6th in a headlock, the 7th puts a gun to his skull and tells him to back the frak away. Then Crimebuster, all cool and badass, goes 'I'm quick enough to beat the crap out of six of your friends, what makes you think I'm not quick enough for seven? You put down the gun, and I won't punch you in the nuts.' And would you believe it. The robber totally puts the gun down. Crimebuster is awesome.

Crimebuster: Yeah, but did you also notice I needed to stop at a gas station after? Crimebuster needed a change of underwear. Point blank, nobody dodges a bullet, not even a superhero.

Anyway, corny, but it's the general approach I'd take.

This doesn't quite describe the theory to which I'm referring. In this kind of scene, a separate character is praising the protagonist after the reader has gone through big events with the protagonist.

I don't think that your suggestion would achieve the result I'm after.

 

[Anders Ämting]

To me, some of the obvious issues I'd worry about is if what's being praised worthy of being praised. And even if it is, the scene might still come off as almost bragging if it's not handled right.

The way I'd handle something like this, which may or may not fit in style of what others write, is counterbalance the praise. I'd undercut it with humor, pointing out some not so great facts, or just counter it with a sobering fact.

Keep in mind, there is a fine line between "counterbalance" and "undermine." You can go too far in either direction. Sometimes your character really is legitimately worthy of praise, and making jokes on his expense risks marring that.

And, really, if you have doubts that your character deserves the praise, why are you even praising him in the first place? It just seems a bit nervous and overly careful to me.

If not overdone this can work. Why not have the MC's opponent indirectly praise him/her. For example: 'Damn Fred and his cunning ways!' The opposing character has clearly been angered by the MC which shows that the MC has had some success. More importantly the character has praised the MC but doesn't admire him. This is a pretty good way to praise a character but avoid all the soppy stuff.

What if the soppy stuff is the point? Like, what if the character honestly admires and loves the MC?

For example: The villain has kidnapped the MC's wife. He has never personally witnessed any of the MC's virtues and asks the wife why she married such a loser. The wife then goes on to tell the villain exactly what kind of guy she married and why kidnapping her was a kind of a stupid idea. That would make for a pretty powerful scene.

See, we shouldn't be afraid of writing genuine feelings. It's sort of our job.

 

[wordwalker]

Yeah, praise can have its moments. "Show don't tell" doesn't mean you can't remind the reader what you're also showing them-- as long as the balance is mostly on the Telling side.

One thing people haven't mentioned is the "you were warned" option: deliberately put a convincing bit of praise before the character gets his first chance to prove it in a scene. Tricky but effective buildup, especially for elusive Batman legends or a Retired Badass.

 

[Penpilot]

Keep in mind, there is a fine line between "counterbalance" and "undermine." You can go too far in either direction. Sometimes your character really is legitimately worthy of praise, and making jokes on his expense risks marring that.

See that why I don't think this fits all styles. But if your character is truly worthy of praise, not matter what anyone else says, the reader will know the deeds they've done are praiseworthy. To me, undercutting it with jokes OR a sobering fact shows humility, which I think will make the character even more likeable. And again, it's not a one size fits all thing.

And, really, if you have doubts that your character deserves the praise, why are you even praising him in the first place? It just seems a bit nervous and overly careful to me.

See, here's the problem. No author can be 100% objective. They may think the deeds of their heroes are worthy of song, but the reader may think otherwise. This is why you have to be careful when you do stuff like this. As soon as you put something up to the light, people are going to look for flaws. To me it can be like telling a joke and then having to explain the punchline. If you have to explain the punchline, maybe the joke isn't as funny as you think.

This is not me poo-pooing the idea of praising a character, but saying think carefully about when you do it and how. Because if the story proclaims something as fact and the reader disagrees, you're one step closer to losing them.

See, we shouldn't be afraid of writing genuine feelings. It's sort of our job.

Yes, but there's a fine line separating "heartwarming" from "oh gosh, I'm going to throw up". It's the difference between a good romantic comedy and a bad one. Take for instance the American Pie movies, heartwarming, sappy even, but no "oh gosh, I'm going to throw up" soppy moments in them.

 

[Zero Angel]

I was thinking about this idea of praising the character a little more yesterday and realized I always thought it was best served when the protagonist is humble, not aware that what they've been doing is deserving of praise, or realistic to the point they don't take pride in their accomplishments. In these situations, the praise is done to inform the character, not done for the reader's benefit.

 

[BWFoster78]

I was thinking about this idea of praising the character a little more yesterday and realized I always thought it was best served when the protagonist is humble, not aware that what they've been doing is deserving of praise, or realistic to the point they don't take pride in their accomplishments. In these situations, the praise is done to inform the character, not done for the reader's benefit.

Again, though, I love the effect that John Ringo achieved in several of his books using this technique, and his characters are anything but humble.

 

[Steerpike]

Again, though, I love the effect that John Ringo achieved in several of his books using this technique, and his characters are anything but humble.

I think it comes down to maintaining what is appropriate and consistent within the work. With Ringo, that fits the style of the overall work, and he's not subtle about what he considers good and right. At least, in what I've read.