"He said" ..."She said" over and over

[Steerpike]

The other thing to remember is that writers are also readers, and a lot of amateur writers have read a hell of a lot of fiction. So it makes a lot more sense to ask an amateur writer, but avid reader, about your fiction story than it would to ask an amateur electronics buff to rewire your house.

 

[Russ]

This sounds like John Truby to me. Or it could be Dean Wesley Smith. Either way, this is a familiar read.

I think the important thing to remember about these discussions is that they can only help us by providing a new perspective, to continue growing in our craft. It's the same as any profession, really. Except that it's not...since writing is an artform and people get rather personal over how they create. That's understandable. Take what applies, leave the rest. Clarity above all things, though. If a writer's stylistic choice is getting in the way of readers immersing in his story, then there's a problem.

I always thought that the rational counter argument to that critique of critique groups would be that "I don't have access to professionals to review and comment on my work, so a good critique group is better than no outside feedback at all."

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

The issue is that they can be symptoms of bad writing and most often are when used by amateur writers, and that's what's these professional editors and authors are pointing out.

Well put, Nimue.

I would also argue that if you don't like what you're reading, chances are the exclamation point had little or nothing to do with it.

 

[Penpilot]

Now I can completely understand the social/emotional reasons that many people choose not to follow advice from experienced professionals and sometimes it works out great for them. But passion, in many circumstances, cannot overcome lack of experience, training and guidance.

I am all for free and creative discussion of writing issues, but to ignore or downgrade the wealth of knowledge we now have at our fingertips from top working professionals would seem to me foolish.

Following this thread, I'm reminded of Writing Excuses episode. Writing Excuses 8.34: Survivorship Bias » Writing Excuses

The episode is basically about just because someone 'made it' doing X does not mean that X will work for someone else.

For the most part, I agree that if someone with experience speaks or gives advice, their advice should be taken seriously. BUT at the same time, that advice should not be taken blindly. That advice should be backed up with good reasoning and should be able to stand on it's own without the authority label.

Good advice and sound reasoning is good advice and sound reasoning regardless of where it comes from. I mean if you received advice from <insert highly respected author with praise-worthy prose here> right before they sold their first book and became a success, is that advice worth less than advice given by <insert highly successful author but considered mediocre writer here> after they made it big?

 

[Devor]

Things are changing very rapidly indeed and you hit on some very important points.

The question of how readers make a buying choice today is a fascinating one. Are there less gatekeepers or just different gatekeepers? These are things that the modern writer must absolutely wrestle with...but it does not mean that we are in the dark about them, or that there are not working professionals who can give us good information to work with. You just get that information from different people.

In the e-pub world I have a friend who is running a company that publishes only e versions of erotic fiction that is based on a model that I have never seen used in publishing before and it is doing really, really well. A couple of days ago I had a meeting with a chap who is a social media marketer who we are working with at my law firm, who has a continuous track record of successful social media marketing campaigns that have worked nation wide. If I have access to that quality of information why would I downgrade it or not seek it out? What they say is not written on stone tablets, but does not the rational person have to assign it a high value?

And you do have to look at your sources and their strengths and weaknesses. I might not ask an older but still popular writer about how to maximize facebook for sales, but when say, David Morrell, talks about the craft of writing I still think it has high value.

Style and audience desires will change. But that does not mean we do not need to make decisions about what we are doing now. If I am looking at that broken leg that needs to be reduced I can't say..."well there will be a different way to reduce it in five years so I should ignore the current standards."

Okay . . . . but when the question is, "Should we or should we not use italics when a character is thinking?" and the ultimate answer is (hypothetically) something like, "Well, Generation X and Baby Boomers finds the font change a little jarring, but Millenials spend all day on the internet and won't miss a beat," then you have to consider the relevance of an author who gives straight forward advice urging just one way or the other.

And you also have to consider the broader lens behind the advice being given. I personally shuffle all these topics into the same category as publishing guidelines stating things like "we don't accept Zombie or Vampire novels (unless it's really good, but yours won't be)." Again, if the question is, "Should I write with Italics?" the ultimate answer might be, "If you're relying on the Italics for characterization, then stop because you're not developing the right skills. If I see Italics on your page, I'll assume that's what you're doing, rookie." That's not exactly the same thing as a no, but people will say no as shorthand, and some of us should recognize that.

 

[Russ]

The episode is basically about just because someone 'made it' doing X does not mean that X will work for someone else.

For the most part, I agree that if someone with experience speaks or gives advice, their advice should be taken seriously. BUT at the same time, that advice should not be taken blindly. That advice should be backed up with good reasoning and should be able to stand on it's own without the authority label.

Good advice and sound reasoning is good advice and sound reasoning regardless of where it comes from. I mean if you received advice from <insert highly respected author with praise-worthy prose here> right before they sold their first book and became a success, is that advice worth less than advice given by <insert highly successful author but considered mediocre writer here> after they made it big?

No advice should be taken blindly, but sometimes the authority label, when properly applied has to carry a large amount of weight because the person has access to information that you don't.

For instance when you are talking to a person who spends a lot of time with acquiring editors in houses you are interested in publishing in and they say (hypothetically) "Italics for thoughts is a big no-no for these editors these days." They have access to information you don't due to their position, and you can either believe them or not, but whichever way you cut it they are in a far better position to know.

IT can go even lower down. If you a member of certain writers organizations you will have access to studies and data that are not published as a perk of membership. So someone might say to you "Oh yeah, our group commissioned a big study on modern author marketing and it found that video trailers almost never influence buying decisions and are a waste of money." You can believe them or not, but they have access to quality information that you might not.

I might also say that when professionals are explaining or commenting on how to do something well, or successfully, they don't always have the time or inclination to explain all of the reasoning behind a conclusion. IT often takes too long. I am often asked to speak on how to do effective trials. When I do a talk about say...the five things to persuade a jury in a cat case, I don't take the time to explain the way I learned or developed all of those things, because I only have a limited time to speak or if doing an article a limited amount of time or space I can or will dedicate to it. Sometimes you just have to look at the source(s) and say "that person knows what they are talking about" and I am going to trust them on it.

The decision gets even easier when multiple quality sources confirm the same thing. Such as with exclamation points or dialogue tags.

I was listening to Neale Degrasse Tyson and Dr. Kaku on the radio yesterday talking about how the nature of reality often does not accurate with our senses and common sense and giving examples. They did not take the time to discuss all the evidence and equations that lead to their conclusions. I didn't expect them to and accept their conclusions based on their experience, qualifications and expertise.

 

[Russ]

Okay . . . . but when the question is, "Should we or should we not use italics when a character is thinking?" and the ultimate answer is (hypothetically) something like, "Well, Generation X and Baby Boomers finds the font change a little jarring, but Millenials spend all day on the internet and won't miss a beat," then you have to consider the relevance of an author who gives straight forward advice urging just one way or the other.

And you also have to consider the broader lens behind the advice being given. I personally shuffle all these topics into the same category as publishing guidelines stating things like "we don't accept Zombie or Vampire novels (unless it's really good, but yours won't be)." Again, if the question is, "Should I write with Italics?" the ultimate answer might be, "If you're relying on the Italics for characterization, then stop because you're not developing the right skills. If I see Italics on your page, I'll assume that's what you're doing, rookie." That's not exactly the same thing as a no, but people will say no as shorthand, and some of us should recognize that.

Let's take that example and work through it. I will tell you how I would handle it and let's see if you agree.

If the question is italics and you want to figure it out, the first thing you have to know is what you are planning to do with the work.

Let's say you are planning to submit it to an agent or an editor. Firstly I would look at their submission guidelines and published comments to see if they, or an editor at their company had ever made a comment on that issue. That is why the internet is wonderful. You might hit say 10 current articles that comment on the issue and if 9 of them say one thing I might go with that.

If that didn't turn up anything I would do something really outlandish. I would write them and ask them which they preferred.

If that didn't work I would pick up five or six books I know they repped or edited and see how they handled it.

If I was in touch with any writers, agents or editors currently working I might ask them as well.

Then I would know what that editor or agent likely wants on that particular issue and I might even know if there was a consensus amongst people in the industry who talk about these things in public or in private if I have access to those people.

I would have a look at some recent manuals of style and books on writing and see if they had any guidance.

Now I might even go onto an internet site (filled with primarily amateurs) and ask what people thought. But if some anonymous person on the internet told me that they thought it should be done a certain way, those folks I would really want to know why they thought that way. And if they said "oh yeah I know that because I heard three editors on a panel a couple of weeks ago say that is what is acceptable these days" that would give their opinion a lot more weight to me than if they claim to have reasoned it through from first principles on their own.

If you were planning to self publish the work then the process would be similar but you might go with slightly different sources. I would suggest looking at good internet sites on editing run by people you respect with relevant experience to see if there was a consensus.

If you were seriously concerned about the italics question isn't that how you should more or less go about it?

 

[glutton]

I think some are approaching this debate from the standpoint of 'what is considered good/bad writing' while others are approaching it more from that of 'what is more likely to find success/be accepted for publication in the current market'.

It's quite obvious that the issues being discussed here are more ones of stylistic preference than actual 'rules' such as grammatical ones. If one style is currently more popular than another, why can it not be viewed in a similar way as if one subgenre of fantasy is currently popular and trendy? If grimdark fantasy happens to become exceedingly popular at a given time, does that mean every fantasy writer should then write grimdark to follow the trend? Probably not.

 

[kennyc]

I think some are approaching this debate from the standpoint of 'what is considered good/bad writing' while others are approaching it more from that of 'what is more likely to find success/be accepted for publication in the current market'.

It's quite obvious that the issues being discussed here are more ones of stylistic preference than actual 'rules' such as grammatical ones. If one style is currently more popular than another, why can it not be viewed in a similar way as if one subgenre of fantasy is currently popular and trendy? If grimdark fantasy happens to become exceedingly popular at a given time, does that mean every fantasy writer should then write grimdark to follow the trend? Probably not.

As is the want of internet forums there are those who think they have to tell others what to do rather than discuss, suggest, offer support.

 

[Russ]

As is the want of internet forums there are those who think they have to tell others what to do rather than discuss, suggest, offer support.

I must have missed that in this thread kennyc. Where did it take place?

 

[BWFoster78]

It's much more interesting, in my view, to talk about the mechanics of what is going on, as T. Allen Smith and others did above. Talking about what you find more effective and why, and presenting substantive writing-based reasoning to adopt one path over the other (if in fact one needs to be adopted over the other). That makes for good discussion in a writing forum.

I have a bunch to thoughts here:

Thought 1 -

I've posted a lot on MS, and I know some of the older members tend to consider my entire history when evaluating my comments. When I started, I was very focused on learning how to write. Now, my perspective has changed, and I'm instead very focused on learning the business of self publishing.

That's not to say that I feel like I've learned how to write well; just that I think learning the latter is more important for me at the moment.

A year ago, I would have said that there is nothing more important to success as an indie author than writing quality. Now, I don't think that's the case. Take two authors:

Author 1 is a fantastic writer but only mediocre at the business of self publishing.
Author 2 is a mediocre writer but fantastic at the business of self publishing.

I really think that, long term, Author 2 is going to be much more successful.

Thought 2 -

I view "the mechanics of what is going on" kind of like I view integral calculus. When I graduated college, I was a whiz at solving derivatives and integrals, even differential equations. I even understood conceptually that an integral calculated the area under a curve by summing the areas of an infinite number of infinitesimally small rectangles.

Mechanically, though, I never ever grokked how an integral accomplished that feat.

Truthfully, at this point, I don't fully understand how all the guidelines established by professional editors and writers work from a mechanical standpoint, and I think most of the other posters here are probably in the same boat. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to discuss them; just that I think it makes sense to put that on the table before we begin the discussion.

In the end, though, I think that one of three possible scenarios is the absolute truth:

1. That the guidelines we're discussing represent some fundamental way to enhance our reader's experience and that, unless you fully understand that fundamental reasoning, you're risking making your writing be of a lesser quality by not following the guidelines.
2. That the guidelines are based on customs and usage only, meaning that they're not representative of a fundamental truth as much as simply the personal preference of some people.
3. Something that lies on the spectrum between 1 and 2.

Thought 3 —

I picture the sum total of all readers as a huge circle. With every decision I make as a writer, I carve out a chunk from that circle.

For example, my first decision is to write in the fantasy genre. By doing so, I’ve just eliminated a huge percentage of potential readers, and there’s nothing I can do about that fact.

Absolutely no book can appeal to all readers.

I believe that there exists a subset of readers who care greatly about the “quality” of the writing, and those readers define “quality” as adherence to the guidelines established by professional writers and editors. I also think that this subset of readers consists of more than just writers who have forgotten how to read like readers and is larger than some of us on this thread tend to believe.

On the other hand, I think that that subset, though large, is of relatively little importance to an independent author. Why? Because that subset has already decided that they’re not willing to give indie authors a chance (except in the case of a recommendation from a trusted source).

Bottom Line for Me —

Putting all three thoughts together: I have a tendency to believe that the guidelines do represent some fundamental enhancement of reader experience. However, I also believe that the individual breaking of any particular guideline tends to have an infinitesimally small impact on the reader experience. As with integral calculus, the sum of those impacts can be enormous, but as a practical matter, an independent author who has gained some minimum level of proficiency with writing isn’t likely to commit enough errors to make a difference with the target audience.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Well put, BW. I totally agree with your bottom line, and yeah, author 2 will do much better than author 1.

On that, I had two similar thoughts today and yesterday…



Similar to BW's bottom line:

Today I was thinking about how perfection does not exist. You could find flaws in the Mona Lisa, but if she had the perfect smile on a symmetrical face, that wouldn't necessarily be better. Even with my own art (which does not deserve to be in the same paragraph as the Mona Lisa) suffers when I worry about flaws. I've had drawings that didn't look as good as the sketches, and the reason for that was because I was focused so much on mechanics, I had a crappy drawing with great line quality. I'm sure I've killed writing by focusing more on mechanics or editing a scene to death, but with art, I just need to look at something an hour after I drew it before I can admit, yeah, that one kinda sucked.

Point being, little imperfections don't make the overall work suffer. If you've poured your heart and soul into your work and are satisfied with the result, move onto the next piece.



Similar to why author 2 will succeed:

While drawing, I was listening to Will Terry's message to his illustration students. If you don't want to watch all three videos (~30 min total), the gist is that you don't get successful by waiting for someone to pick you and tell you you can draw (or write—the message is applicable to authors). You pick yourself and just do it. So if you want to draw, draw. If you want to write, write. Don't wait for someone else to tell you the work is good enough to sell. Just sell it.

Another important piece of advice he gave is not to look at your entire project (web comic, series of short stories, novel…) as a whole. Focus on the part you're on, love what you're doing, finish that step and go on to the next.

I'm not author #2 yet (or writer-artist #2), but I know I need to create content and have files at web resolution and print resolution before I can expect to make any money, so the part I'm on now is creating content one episode at a time—and of course trying to keep pace with (outpace, really) a sensible release schedule. Once I have enough content to go live (I think at least 3 months worth, plus at least 2 straight months of drawing at the essential pace), I'll study more about the business before going live.

I think if you're writing a novel or series of shorts, you can take a similar route of finishing content, studying on the business, publishing and moving onto the next story.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I like the phrase:

Perfection is subjective.