"Strong" men; gender roles in a fantasy culture and strength of character

[Alile]

I am just so fed up with these so-called "strong" men characters. I am sick and tired of hearing about "those broad shoulders", an upper body shaped by years of working in the smithy. I hate those unruly brown curls, that dimple in his chin, that striding gait and how he holds himself when fighting with the sword (shield arm in front, feet spaced apart one in front of the other at a slanting angle - have heard it before). I'm so sick of these cardboard paper characters I often read about, so "strong".

It's easy to think of men as strong, isn't it, when all you can compare them to are women, so often labelled "the weaker sex". Don't you think we should take a good look at this and try to open up our eyes to what our culture has imposed on us? "Strong". It seems to me it is time to look at the man's role today, and then try to use that in our work as writers of fantasy. What seems to be the truth here in our present time may not be so in your writing. Gender roles have forever been changing, and the male role is changing, but the real question is what your worldbuilding is like. Please read a little about different cultures, different times, sociology, social pshycology before you try to make up your own. There is so much knowledge to learn from, there really is no need to re-invent the wheel. Be aware of these things in your world, when you build social play and gender roles.

Men are humans. Just like women are by the way. What the heck is strength then? How much you can benchpress? Or how you control your emotions? Is it how socially skillful you are; "he was imposing", and how good you are at manipulating? How good you are at your work used to matter very much, now it's more about IQ and the monies you earn. Or... Is it maybe strength of character we mean?

Isn't it funny how we write about our characters, and that phrase is staring you right in the face...... Strength of character?
Yes, I like that phase, and I guess that is what I was looking for. Any character can have strength of character, no? I will admit... Even men.

 

[skip.knox]

Go for it!

I have a different set of criteria for creating my characters, but I'm all for others blazing their own trails!

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

There's a ton of talk about how cultural and societal standards and expectations for women are damaging and limiting, but expectations for how men are "supposed" to be are often just as much so, and furthermore, it's far more taboo to break those standards in fiction for men than it is for women. Since fiction is a direct representation of the ideas of our culture, it's a problem worth addressing.

There are other male character tropes, like the scholarly/scientist/intelligent or whatever character, who is permitted to to have a slenderly build and be physically weak (but unfortunately is not permitted to be a love interest or Hero, at best a sidekick.)

Men in fiction typically have to be strong and muscular, with a chiseled jaw and powerful body. No thin, willowy or wiry builds are permitted. Never, ever show emotion other than anger...especially not crying. Huge taboo against crying...A "strong guy" won't cry unless a close family member/love interest just died, and even then it will be silent, manly tears. They have to be super protective of every female around them. Typically their skills consist of using weapons and being a warrior. He's a fighter, he solves his problems using physical confrontation. But aside from that, he's kind of generic. He doesn't have odd interests/hobbies, he doesn't have quirks. He's just a Generic Manly Warrior Guy.

I could go on, but...it's a very narrow set of guys that are permitted to be the Hero of a fantasy tale. (And the love interest of the heroine. An EVEN MORE narrow category.) The socially awkward philosophers who love socks, overenthusuastic but frequently asthmatic explorers/scientists who go about the countryside looking for dragons to document and study, and generally anyone who's not an uber-masculine fighter are far less common. Maybe I just like quirks. I don't know. My characters are usually extremely quirky. But if a character like this was cast as the MC a lot of the book's marketing appeal would be capitalizing on the oddness of the choice of MC.

 

[Ban]

I am sick and tired of hearing about "those broad shoulders", an upper body shaped by years of working in the smithy. I hate those unruly brown curls, that dimple in his chin, that striding gait and how he holds himself when fighting with the sword (shield arm in front, feet spaced apart one in front of the other at a slanting angle - have heard it before).

Swoon


No but in all seriousness I personally have no problem with the standard strong male character. Especially in movies they are often generic enough for me to focus on the world and the other characters without worrying about Awesome McBaldhead.

 

[glutton]

There's a ton of talk about how cultural and societal standards and expectations for women are damaging and limiting, but expectations for how men are "supposed" to be are often just as much so, and furthermore, it's far more taboo to break those standards in fiction for men than it is for women. Since fiction is a direct representation of the ideas of our culture, it's a problem worth addressing.

There are other male character tropes, like the scholarly/scientist/intelligent or whatever character, who is permitted to to have a slenderly build and be physically weak (but unfortunately is not permitted to be a love interest or Hero, at best a sidekick.)

Men in fiction typically have to be strong and muscular, with a chiseled jaw and powerful body. No thin, willowy or wiry builds are permitted. Never, ever show emotion other than anger...especially not crying. Huge taboo against crying...A "strong guy" won't cry unless a close family member/love interest just died, and even then it will be silent, manly tears. They have to be super protective of every female around them. Typically their skills consist of using weapons and being a warrior. He's a fighter, he solves his problems using physical confrontation. But aside from that, he's kind of generic. He doesn't have odd interests/hobbies, he doesn't have quirks. He's just a Generic Manly Warrior Guy.

I could go on, but...it's a very narrow set of guys that are permitted to be the Hero of a fantasy tale. (And the love interest of the heroine. An EVEN MORE narrow category.) The socially awkward philosophers who love socks, overenthusuastic but frequently asthmatic explorers/scientists who go about the countryside looking for dragons to document and study, and generally anyone who's not an uber-masculine fighter are far less common. Maybe I just like quirks. I don't know. My characters are usually extremely quirky. But if a character like this was cast as the MC a lot of the book's marketing appeal would be capitalizing on the oddness of the choice of MC.

I've gone with a weaker and also emotionally 'softer' male love interest a few times, though they are usually still warriors to some degree, but then again most major characters in my stories are warriors to some degree.

Like Ann the awesome princess who can singlehandedly take out 13 bandits for fun and kill a bear with her bare hands next to Mark, a trained militia member who can hold his own against and maybe beat an average fighter, but that's about it. When Ann is introduced Mark runs from said 13 bandits while Ann wrecks them and no, he never catches up to let alone surpasses her in combat. XD

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I've gone with a weaker and also emotionally 'softer' male love interest a few times, though they are usually still warriors to some degree, but then again most major characters in my stories are warriors to some degree.

Like Ann the awesome princess who can singlehandedly take out 13 bandits for fun and kill a bear with her bare hands next to Mark, a trained militia member who can hold his own against and maybe beat an average fighter, but that's about it. When Ann is introduced Mark runs from said 13 bandits while Ann wrecks them and no, he never catches up to let alone surpasses her in combat. XD

My MC's love interest is an intelligent, thoughtful, sensitive, kind of emotional guy; she's a scary fighter who rides dragons and throws knives and doesn't take crap from anyone. He's not a lot in battle, and not super buff and muscular with the chiseled jaw and everything at all, but not all characters are fighters. The two of them fit together rather perfectly.

 

[Ireth]

The secondary MC in my main WIP is the actual MC's widowed father, so there's no romance in his subplot at all. He's not as physically strong as his older brother, nor is he the stoic, emotionless type. In fact he's very prone to anxiety, also has PTSD, shows his emotions openly, and while he does battle to protect those he loves, it's typically his second choice when diplomacy fails. He also tends toward quirkiness -- he's a music teacher who loves acting onstage, and has a great fondness for musicals, chocolate (especially Reeses), and Earl Grey tea.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

In all seriousness, thanks, Allie. Great points and I do agree—female characters can slay dragons, male characters can have emotion. I try not to let either gender lean toward an extreme. Awesome McBaldhead (a.k.a. Dick Riddick) is the male equivalent of the chainmail bikini.

He's the chainmail boxer short.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

The secondary MC in my main WIP is the actual MC's widowed father, so there's no romance in his subplot at all. He's not as physically strong as his older brother, nor is he the stoic, emotionless type. In fact he's very prone to anxiety, also has PTSD, shows his emotions openly, and while he does battle to protect those he loves, it's typically his second choice when diplomacy fails. He also tends toward quirkiness -- he's a music teacher who loves acting onstage, and has a great fondness for musicals, chocolate (especially Reeses), and Earl Grey tea.

He sounds like my kind of character, haha. I love unconventional, quirky characters.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

In all seriousness, thanks, Allie. Great points and I do agree—female characters can slay dragons, male characters can have emotion. I try not to let either gender lean toward an extreme. Awesome McBaldhead (a.k.a. Dick Riddick) is the male equivalent of the chainmail bikini.

He's the chainmail boxer short.

Chainmail boxer shorts? Those sound...super painful.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Chainmail, I shudder at the word usage... It's not a chainmail wedgie, it's a mail wedgie, heh heh.

And it isn't pleasant.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Chainmail, I shudder at the word usage... It's not a chainmail wedgie, it's a mail wedgie, heh heh.

And it isn't pleasant.

You have personal experience with mail wedgies? Do elaborate...

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The problem is not strong men, if there's a problem at all, it's the popularity of a role (the warrior in his prime) in fantasy fiction. A well trained warrior in his prime is going to be v-shaped of some variety more often than not. It's not like I know what Jean le Maingre (the guy climbed a ladder on the underside in full plate) really looked like, but it's a damned good bet he was one damned fit dude, and if this is what people are writing, it just makes sense.

Elric is certainly not the v-shoulder macho man, nor are a lot of characters.

But I don't have a problem with character that's well written. Simple.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

This one time, in barbarian band camp... and worse, it wasn't riveted either, it was cheap butted mail (pun intended) and pinched like a son-of-a-gun.

And one should, quite seriously, wax. heh heh.

You have personal experience with mail wedgies? Do elaborate...

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

The problem is not strong men, if there's a problem at all, it's the popularity of a role (the warrior in his prime) in fantasy fiction. A well trained warrior in his prime is going to be v-shaped of some variety more often than not. It's not like I know what Jean le Maingre (the guy climbed a ladder on the underside in full plate) really looked like, but it's a damned good bet he was one damned fit dude, and if this is what people are writing, it just makes sense.

Elric is certainly not the v-shoulder macho man, nor are a lot of characters.

But I don't have a problem with character that's well written. Simple.

Good point. A dandelion fluff of a guy is not going to be able to swing a huge battleaxe and beat up huge warriors and plow through enemy ranks.

Main characters in combat roles, or that solve their problems through fighting, are very common though. Also, even non-warrior characters tend to be buff and muscular.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I honestly don't pay enough attention to character description to care when reading, LOL.

Good point. A dandelion fluff of a guy is not going to be able to swing a huge battleaxe and beat up huge warriors and plow through enemy ranks.

Main characters in combat roles, or that solve their problems through fighting, are very common though. Also, even non-warrior characters tend to be buff and muscular.

 

[skip.knox]

Barbarian band camp. Is that where you all learn to play the ax?

 

[glutton]

I honestly don't pay enough attention to character description to care when reading, LOL.

You might not notice many of my female characters being covered in scars and/or wielding a giant weapon then XD

 

[La Volpe]

It seems to me it is time to look at the man's role today, and then try to use that in our work as writers of fantasy. What seems to be the truth here in our present time may not be so in your writing. Gender roles have forever been changing, and the male role is changing, but the real question is what your worldbuilding is like. Please read a little about different cultures, different times, sociology, social pshycology before you try to make up your own. There is so much knowledge to learn from, there really is no need to re-invent the wheel. Be aware of these things in your world, when you build social play and gender roles.

An important thing to note here is that most fantasy involves medieval-like time periods. Which means that men are obviously going to be ushered towards combat and physical strength roles, because they're more expendable (which is actually relevant in many fantasy worlds) and they biologically have more physical strength.

Men are humans. Just like women are by the way. What the heck is strength then? How much you can benchpress? Or how you control your emotions? Is it how socially skillful you are; "he was imposing", and how good you are at manipulating? How good you are at your work used to matter very much, now it's more about IQ and the monies you earn. Or... Is it maybe strength of character we mean?

Isn't it funny how we write about our characters, and that phrase is staring you right in the face...... Strength of character?
Yes, I like that phase, and I guess that is what I was looking for. Any character can have strength of character, no? I will admit... Even men.

Strength of character seems to imply goodness, which is not necessarily present in all 'strong' characters. Sometimes, a 'strong' character is exactly that. Strong. I.e. able to lift heavy objects and do rigorous activity for extended periods of time.

I like to think of strong characters as people who act. I.e. who make decisions and follow through on their goals. This can be achieved by lopping off heads or by tricking someone into drinking the poisoned drink, or by whatever means necessary.

But aside from that, he's kind of generic. He doesn't have odd interests/hobbies, he doesn't have quirks. He's just a Generic Manly Warrior Guy.

I think we should differentiate here between a badly written character and so-called 'strong' male character. I.e. being a buff warrior guy doesn't preclude a person from having quirks and an interesting personality.

I don't think I've read a book with a main character who is a flat Generic Manly Warrior Guy in... well, ever. Maybe I'm just reading different books?