pmmg
Myth Weaver
Sure
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Orc females
- Thread starter Fettju
- Start date
Queshire
Istar
Ok.
- Thread starter
- #63
MinstrelNo, that was about the spirit thing you said you didn't get.
Yes but that is why I posted this. If female is only giving birth and caring for the ones they give birth to, or if there is something else that is deeply feminine. If someone has an idea for how to make a wild feminine creature without the child rearing as the feminine thing
I want the orc female to feel feminine when you meet them in the story, without the actions (childrearing, cleaning, cooking etc) showing you that they are female
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Queshire
Istar
I mean, I said this before, but I still think that you could get what you want by having them focused on magic.
Imagine, the hags in the forest offering curses & prophecy. Burning red eyes with long black hair that seems to fuse with the shadows of the cavern. In the midst of a cold winter cursebound animals hunt at the cackling commands of their mistress.
Rexenm
Inkling
Another good source would be Abe’s Odyssey, or any of the spin-offs.
- Thread starter
- #66
Yes amazing! Looks like a skinny female orc. Abby's Odyssey.
I am not interested in sources that are other fantasy stories or games though. It's like when someone is making a fantasy rpg, and instead of coming up with their own ideas they think what other games have done "works" and that it is the latest in the evolution of rpgs, which makes it "right." Like using mana/magicka bars, and health bars. "But other games did it! So it must be right! I am also braindead!"
I was in such a forum on discord, it was full of gamers. Gamers must be the highest (=lowest) point in the evolution of the consumer. They had zero ideas.(edit: it is not racism to say that, by the way. To all the sensitive ableist people out there.) All was "what that popular game did! Or that other game did that, but it didn't sell so much so it means their system was not as good."
I bring up rpgs because it is probably the absolute best way to tell a story. But it's all wasted because uninspired developers.
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- Thread starter
- #67
Jung also talks about various female archetypes
Finchbearer
Istar
The orcs were elves that were given steroids, lobotomised then baked in an oven like bread.
- Thread starter
- #69
Sounds like globalized elves. Gandalf game them iPhones and Instagram, then said "no, I am actually Morgoth the White"
- Thread starter
- #70
Each time I see you (Fettju) reference "feminine" it sounds to me like you're invoking specifically human notions of femininity. More, specifically Western and fairly modern notions. Assuming I'm not off base on this, then I see a tension, maybe a contradiction. On the one hand, you're going for animalistic, yet you want the reader to recognize "femininity"--which necessarily means a modern, mostly Western, reader's notions of femininity.
I think the posts here saying to focus on other markers (magic being one) is an attempt to suggest a resolution to that contradiction. If the story says, female orcs are the only ones who can do magic, then you have instant recognizability--that's a female because she just cast a spell--without needing to resort to modern, Western stereotypes about human females. It doesn't need to be magic, it can be any of a number of other things. Only females hunt prey. Only females can sing. Only ... take your pick of a thousand markers.
I think the posts here saying to focus on other markers (magic being one) is an attempt to suggest a resolution to that contradiction. If the story says, female orcs are the only ones who can do magic, then you have instant recognizability--that's a female because she just cast a spell--without needing to resort to modern, Western stereotypes about human females. It doesn't need to be magic, it can be any of a number of other things. Only females hunt prey. Only females can sing. Only ... take your pick of a thousand markers.
Finchbearer
Istar
Okay, being semi-serious, in answer to what femininity look like in orc society, firstly, are they capable of having their own society? The only thing we can go off is how male orcs are currently portrayed in the most popular literature, which is primitive, brutal, and…disgusting. They are corrupted creatures that like to dwell in only dark places.
So that’s all we can go off to imagine the female sex. I’d say the closest comparison would be primates, with social pecking orders and how they mate and rear their young. Chimps are ruthless, but also have that mammalian capacity for nurturing their young.
In this orc society with female orcs there would be an alpha male and this would be a competitive process where he would compete for the top female and her approved lesser females. Of course the top female must keep her position at the top just as the males do.
They would kill or ‘cull’ the weaker older orcs to keep the health of the group, and they would be capable of making friendships, mourn their dead and love each other on a very basic primitive level.
They would hunt for food together and make safe places for sleeping and rearing young orcs.
The femininity would be reflected in this basic mammalian way.
So that’s all we can go off to imagine the female sex. I’d say the closest comparison would be primates, with social pecking orders and how they mate and rear their young. Chimps are ruthless, but also have that mammalian capacity for nurturing their young.
In this orc society with female orcs there would be an alpha male and this would be a competitive process where he would compete for the top female and her approved lesser females. Of course the top female must keep her position at the top just as the males do.
They would kill or ‘cull’ the weaker older orcs to keep the health of the group, and they would be capable of making friendships, mourn their dead and love each other on a very basic primitive level.
They would hunt for food together and make safe places for sleeping and rearing young orcs.
The femininity would be reflected in this basic mammalian way.
I don't think those are the only things we can go off of. Or, at the very least, those are things we can also choose to invert or otherwise use as a point of radical departure.
We don't need to use primates, not when we're inventing. We can make our orcs pacific, timid, a people who have always been persecuted and hunted, who now excel at hiding and stealth.
Instead of a hierarchy based on strength, it can be a hierarchy based on cunning, duplicity, theft. It doesn't need to be a hierarchy at all but can be a society based on reputation. Fame brings fame and favor but not authority and power. Females could be just as good at this as males.
One of the lovely things about fantasy is the opportunity to go in new directions and explore there.
We don't need to use primates, not when we're inventing. We can make our orcs pacific, timid, a people who have always been persecuted and hunted, who now excel at hiding and stealth.
Instead of a hierarchy based on strength, it can be a hierarchy based on cunning, duplicity, theft. It doesn't need to be a hierarchy at all but can be a society based on reputation. Fame brings fame and favor but not authority and power. Females could be just as good at this as males.
One of the lovely things about fantasy is the opportunity to go in new directions and explore there.
Queshire
Istar
While that does seem to be what Fet's going for I would say that there's more variation amongst some of the most famous portrayals of Orcs. Orcs from World of Warcraft are almost Klingon-esque proud warrior race guys and the most famous example had an arc about reconnecting with their spiritual, shamanistic heritage. Orks from Warhammer 40k are... uh... well, disgusting would be accurate enough to describe them, but are inspired by English football hooligans. They build guns, space ships, giant robots and more. The stuff they build is all cobbled together and only works in the first place because they're mildly psychic so I guess you could still call them primitive, but they're still a sci-fi space faring race. Actually, even in Lord of the Rings the Orcs were the most industrialized and technologically advanced, though that really goes back to Tolkien not liking industrialized warfare and to further contrast with the agriculturally based Hobbits.
There was a story I read once where the Orcs were actually unable to digest meat. They were naturally herbivores. They still had the classic Orc tusks though, but that's just because some of the plants where they lived had a habit of biting back. =0
Also Warhammer 40k Orks still mostly stick to the Orky archetype, but do put a spin on things by being evolved from fungus. They grow from spores (which are often spread when an adult Ork is injured, blown up, etc) and as a result that particular type doesn't have female Orks.
- Thread starter
- #75
Of course. My story is directed to humans. I cannot redefine what is feminine, because then nobody will be able to relate.
No, that is why I posted this. If I can get any ideas in this forum for what could be experienced as feminine in the story by the audience later, without the most obvious ones, giving birth, rearing children, grooming, cooking, cleaning. And other tasks that are mostly used in a civilization however simple it is.
Not a very western notion at all. Why would a western idea of femininity be bad anyway? So what I was asking is ideas for femininity, if the western ideas are not enough bring up some eastern ones. Because I am looking for ideas about femininity.
In my story there are not warriors and thieves and magic users. Magic is something everyone can use if they come across it and comprehend it.
But what kind of magic would it be that marks an orc as female?
- Thread starter
- #76
I got some interesting ideas from that article that was posted earlier. About the interactions/relations of the males and the females.
Yes but that is still a society. My orcs happen to be together because their root is Man, which is a social creature.
But my orcs are the opposite of civilization and society. Or at least as far as one can go without any of it and it still being a group that works together on the most basics, like wolves and sparrows do.
I liked the chimpansees where the females move between the groups, while the males stay in the same group. And the marmoset where two males share the same female. It is a different and wild take on it.
But all of that is still only interpersonal behaviour. That doesn't make a being feminine or masculine.
I don't see how that is feminine though. Isn't that the structure of many societies? The job of the male vs the job of the female.
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- #77
Finchbearer
Istar
What is femininity to you OP?
- Thread starter
- #79
My half formed idea right now after reading what you have posted is that the male orcs could be like an extreme and prejudice-version of men in muslim society: warriors, always looking to challenge and brag, always fighting and plundering and hunting/killing, wanting to put everything under their control.
And the female orc thus would be the woman who cannot abide in such conditions. And she cannot fight the males to attain her freedom to exist as anything other than just a baby machine, because she is weaker, neither can she rebel against them like a teenager and hope they give her some mercy and space, because she is penned in by the males and subdued constantly. (Now it sounds a bit like first wave feminism, but ignore that)
So the orc female chooses either to not dwell among the males, or to live on the outskirts of where the male pack is moving so she can still go to them for protection and help when it is pressing.
She runs and hides very well so the males cannot subdue her. Her ability to hide (camouflageing herself and sneaking) could be called "magical" as she originally is a spirit. Orc males are also good at that, but that is more of a weak female thing to do, sneaking around and hiding, a male challenges and kills! Unless it is a very dangerous beast the pack is encountering, then the males also sneak and hide.
She also adorns herself, but as there is no society or culture that produces such things, she uses bones and leaves and feathers for that.
When a female gives birth the baby is left with the males to be fostered by them, as the female cannot stay with the men and be wild at the same time. She would be forcibly tamed by them, as they are all about domination and it is impossible for a weaker one to win challenges/fights. Maybe the males leave the babies at the outskirt of the pack's current dominated area at dawn and dusk and midday for the mother to feed it. If the baby is a female, females group together to save the child when it is getting into puberty.
Orcs are very promiscuous as they are wild, and as the male dominates, the female seduces. Human hunters and herders sometimes come across orc females and the offspring look like humans as the orcs are "born from" humans. Maybe. Then it depends on the human male if he brings the baby to his village or discards it.
But of course, a maybe to all of this. The orc female has to be wild though, that is the whole point of my orcs. A male being dominant and violent and not having rules and norms is wild, but a female would not be wild living among much stronger dominant creatures.
And the female orc thus would be the woman who cannot abide in such conditions. And she cannot fight the males to attain her freedom to exist as anything other than just a baby machine, because she is weaker, neither can she rebel against them like a teenager and hope they give her some mercy and space, because she is penned in by the males and subdued constantly. (Now it sounds a bit like first wave feminism, but ignore that)
So the orc female chooses either to not dwell among the males, or to live on the outskirts of where the male pack is moving so she can still go to them for protection and help when it is pressing.
She runs and hides very well so the males cannot subdue her. Her ability to hide (camouflageing herself and sneaking) could be called "magical" as she originally is a spirit. Orc males are also good at that, but that is more of a weak female thing to do, sneaking around and hiding, a male challenges and kills! Unless it is a very dangerous beast the pack is encountering, then the males also sneak and hide.
She also adorns herself, but as there is no society or culture that produces such things, she uses bones and leaves and feathers for that.
When a female gives birth the baby is left with the males to be fostered by them, as the female cannot stay with the men and be wild at the same time. She would be forcibly tamed by them, as they are all about domination and it is impossible for a weaker one to win challenges/fights. Maybe the males leave the babies at the outskirt of the pack's current dominated area at dawn and dusk and midday for the mother to feed it. If the baby is a female, females group together to save the child when it is getting into puberty.
Orcs are very promiscuous as they are wild, and as the male dominates, the female seduces. Human hunters and herders sometimes come across orc females and the offspring look like humans as the orcs are "born from" humans. Maybe. Then it depends on the human male if he brings the baby to his village or discards it.
But of course, a maybe to all of this. The orc female has to be wild though, that is the whole point of my orcs. A male being dominant and violent and not having rules and norms is wild, but a female would not be wild living among much stronger dominant creatures.
- Thread starter
- #80
Well...I am not sure. That is why I posted this. I am thinking most of soft, sensitive, sensual, afraid. I think. Lots of traits and things that are more feminine than masculine
