Orc females

[Finchbearer]

It’s hard to define femininity, or masculinity for that matter because everyone has their own idea of what they are made up of, that being said I like the idea of the divine female as a good example of what femininity is.

Take Freya for example, the Norse and Celtic Goddess who is described as embodying a ‘sacred polarity’. She walks the line between good and bad, dark and light, love and war, birth and death. She and many other Goddesses are made to represent the depths of a their divinity and therefore that of women.

In the context of female orcs, it might be that they are able to be both brutal and delicate, harsh and nurturing etc.

 

[Rexenm]

So the orc female chooses either to not dwell among the males, or to live on the outskirts of where the male pack is moving so she can still go to them for protection and help when it is pressing.

There is something spiritual about Neanderthals. I think they shy away from light, live in caves, and are very tall. I imagine their life starts in a book, and the man works to repletion, the woman nurtures to repletion. What is there left after that? It reminds me of golem, hunting birds and fish.

 

[pmmg]

Has the OP mentioned somewhere that they would have magic? I dont think I saw that.

I want the orc female to feel feminine when you meet them in the story, without the actions (childrearing, cleaning, cooking etc) showing you that they are female

Have them be more fearful, more prone to running away than challenging, and moving to fight only when cornered. Be less aggressive than males, and more likely to seek help when encountering others, or being more compliant about them. If you want a reader to know right away its a female, describe their shape.

To be honest, I think I would not be stuck on this. I would have just started writing it.

 

[Insolent Lad]

There is really only one quality female orcs would need to be 'feminine' and that is to be attractive to male orcs. Maybe dangerously so, like female mantises.

 

[skip.knox]

>I cannot redefine what is feminine, because then nobody will be able to relate.
In fact, it's done all the time, especially in science fiction--or at least that's the genre where I first met it, courtesy of Ursula Le Guin. I did not mean to imply where you were heading was bad, only that there were other directions. Direction chosen is always up to the author, but it's not really a choice if you don't know what options exist.

 

[Queshire]

That is not an image of a wild woman

Buddy, if you can't turn a witch in the woods into an image of a wild woman then you need to work on your writing skills a bit more before you think about writing a story.

 

[Queshire]

Look, another thing to ask with this whole thing is what role do you want them to play in the story? Are they meant to be threats to your protagonists? Fleshy background objects that wail and scream while your manly man heroes slaughter all the male orcs? Etc and so on.

 

[nuh-the-deva]

Lets say this world subscribes to more traditional/conservative ideas such as masculinity being defined by the urge to patrol (defending externally) and femininity being defined by the urge nurture (defending internally)

Let's work off of that...

Animalistic and savage patrolling: Attacking unprovoked, expanding territory without a plan, wandering for fights, parasitism if they're not strong enough to compete directly, considering their mates as property, lack of respect for physically weaker creatures, using strength as a weapon ("I can find you and kill you.")

Animalistic and savage nurturing: Obsession over growth, manipulation of resources for ones own benefit, fostering codependency from others to make up for any strength they lack, cutting off those who cannot provide resources, considering their children as property (even if grown), using patience as a weapon ("I will wait and posion you")

Personally I think that femininity and masculinity are more like personality traits. So the "savage traits" bubble up based on an individual's personality rather than their gender or sex.

However, you may consider them sex-based if that's how your world's people work.

I would personally consider animalistic and savage femininity to be either defined by the urge to create strong children or the urge to utilize one's femininity for social standing. All out of desperation, since the more well-defined concepts of femininity and masculine are usually imposed by society. So the "femme" people would still have to work within those confines to exploit others. Otherwise they'd just be outright animals (regardless of sex/gender).

 

[Prince of Spires]

another thing to ask with this whole thing is what role do you want them to play in the story?

I think this is pretty much the only thing that matters. We've given a whole range of options. And considering the fact that you're basically playing god with a group of creatures you can do anything you want with them. Plenty of animals have larger and stronger females than males, so you can make them even stronger and nastier than male orcs without the readers feeling cheated. Alternatively, you could go the complete opposite end, make them docile and caring. Or nasty and backstabbing. Or anything else you want. You can justify any choice, since they're basically a group of creatures created by magic.

So just write them.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Just because women give birth to babies doesn't mean they're naturally inclined towards nurturing them or are somehow the weaker sex. The way that women behave is largely driven by societal, cultural and religious conditioning and one only has to look at the various cultural practices amongst indigenous peoples to realise this.

If orcs are created by separating the wild and animalistic behaviour of man through magic there probably wouldn't be any difference between male and female orcs for the most part (apart from the obvious biological ones). The only key difference would be whom the violence is directed against - and why.

Also, as the orcs are the product of magic, do they mate and have biological children?

 

[Fettju]

the woman nurtures to repletion

Yes, there is that...

Maybe there is a way of nurturing something other than the other members of a group?
Women often are exponentially better at "loving themselves" than men are. A female nurturing herself by staying safe, away from the dominant males, dwelling in a glade with a brook in the forest, her place which she nurtures by having flowers grow and birds come and drink, etc.
Now this is getting interesting, the concept of the orc female if I follow this, is becoming a nymph like creature. And it seems to connect well with my idea of the human tribe that brings the spirit of a spring with them into a desert, and she is actually an orc female.

reminds me of golem, hunting birds and fish.

Gollum? Yes, a female Golluma, capturing crayfish and snails, her My Precious not being a ring, but herself

 

[Fettju]

they would have magic?

My magic will be more like real life magic, the way it is in religious myths and in fairy tales. To work it you must understand the meanings and the symbols of the world.

Have them be more fearful, more prone to running away than challenging, and moving to fight only when cornered. Be less aggressive than males

Yes, fearful of being captured by the orc males.
Might also be, fearful of being civilized or being integrated in a human settlement or culture, as that would stop her from being wild and thus losing her very essence.

 

[Queshire]

A female nurturing herself by staying safe, away from the dominant males, dwelling in a glade with a brook in the forest, her place which she nurtures by having flowers grow and birds come and drink, etc.

So a Disney princess. Your idea of the feminine stripped of society & civilization and strengthening their most animalistic urges is... a Disney princess.

 

[Finchbearer]

Where has this thread gone 🫠 did OP read my post about the ideals of femininity from divine females, as in goddesses? They were meant to embody all that is ‘feminine’, and personally I would agree, we are always both, yin and yang, dark and light.

I can’t speak for all women, cus you know, we’re all different, all individuals, but I would agree with that description I wrote of femininity. Just translate that to orcs.

 

[nuh-the-deva]

So a Disney princess. Your idea of the feminine stripped of society & civilization and strengthening their most animalistic urges is... a Disney princess.

Fettju said "nymph" not Disney princess (though a particularly vindictive mermaid or siren might qualify for both). In some myths nymphs are pretty animalistic and savage. I think Fettju's on the right track for what they want. Or at least closer.

 

[Queshire]

Fettju said "nymph" not Disney princess. In some myths nymphs are pretty animalistic and savage. I think Fettju's on the right track for what they want. Or at least closer.

I am aware of what he wrote.

 

[Fettju]

not be stuck on this. just start writing

No, I need this to be right. I am not writing a story to myself to be feel good about after I have finished it.
I have the elves finished, and I have humans and elves. I wanted one more race, and the orcs came to me when I was thinking of the surroundings of the second story on my world. But they cannot be just another humanoid species that some god created or that got evolved from some monkey. And since the orc idea came to me, I need them to be explained well for myself.

 

[Fettju]

but it's not really a choice if you don't know what options exist.

Exaclty. So I ask here to see if people have any good ideas

 

[Fettju]

Animalistic and savage patrolling: Attacking unprovoked, expanding territory without a plan, wandering for fights, parasitism if they're not strong enough to compete directly, considering their mates as property, lack of respect for physically weaker creatures, using strength as a weapon ("I can find you and kill you.")

Yes

Animalistic and savage nurturing: Obsession over growth, manipulation of resources for ones own benefit, fostering codependency from others to make up for any strength they lack, cutting off those who cannot provide resources

and no, because here we are already entering a kind of society or culture. If that is the only way for femininity, then I will only have male orcs

Personally I think that femininity and masculinity are more like personality traits. So the "savage traits" bubble up based on an individual's personality rather than their gender or sex.

You could be right. General personality traits of a whole group. Or based on "feminine personality traits" and masculine.

the idea of the divine female as a good example of what femininity is

I am moving in this "zone", and I think that is in the area of personality traits.
The wild woman is a sort of personality trait, I read about it this weekend. Not much but a little.
I also need to read more about the divine female

 

[Fettju]

apart from the obvious biological ones

Exactly. So there would be no competition between the males and the females, as the males are much stronger.
And as they are wild as opposed to building societal structure, the females would have to be something very different than the males if they are to thrive.
The wildness in a person is what pushes him/her to not sit down and accept a harsh reality.

(I don't mean "be something different" as in another biological creature)

do they mate and have biological children?

Well I am trying to see how that would work out, if you read what I posted on page 4 I think