Ask me about archery, longbows especially.

[morgana15]

If these questions have been asked before, I apologize, but I have a few little things I need some clarification/input on.

1) If a person was shot in the neck with an arrow, it would most likely go all the way through, right? Rather than just sticking out of the neck.
2) What size bow would be good for a person who is just starting out with archery? They've used a bow before, and know the basics of how to use one, but the person is quite small and not very strong.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

1) If a person was shot in the neck with an arrow, it would most likely go all the way through, right? Rather than just sticking out of the neck.

Almost certain it would pass through. Even contacting the vertebrae, an arrow shot by any bow of decent weight would likely shatter the bone and sever the spinal column, then pass through.

I've shot deer in the spine before (from a tree stand right above them, straight down shot) and saw the arrowhead pass through the spine, through the chest cavity, and create an exit wound through the ribcage. I was a teen, using a bow measuring 45lbs @ 28". The range was about 18 feet, straight down.

A human neck doesn't have nearly that much tissue.

2) What size bow would be good for a person who is just starting out with archery? They've used a bow before, and know the basics of how to use one, but the person is quite small and not very strong.

For someone small, likely a short bow, but it depends on the era you're writing in. By that I mean, what is the technology level? Longbows might be rather hard for a small person to wield or draw. Most longbows I've seen are a minimum of 60lbs at a 30" draw length... Longbows made for war were significantly heavier.

Recurve bows for hunting start at about 45lbs but most adults would use about 55lbs at a 28-30" draw length. Of course you can use lighter weight bows but you sacrifice range and power/speed.

You'll also notice above that I mentioned draw length twice. Your draw length will depend on your body type, longer arms means longer draw. A 30" draw will result in more power than someone smaller with a 25" draw...with the same bow, the longer draw will flex the limbs more, resulting in greater power and speed. Therefore, most bows come with measurements like 45lbs @ 28".

Other than design, material technology also comes into play. Are composite bows available or only wood? Do they know about backing limbs with sinew or other natural materials, or are they advanced enough to back the limbs with fiberglass or other synthetics? These methods were developed to improve power and flight speed with shorter limbs.

If your character isn't strong, have them use a low weight bow BUT have the performance suffer in exchange for their inability to draw and wield a heavier bow.

There's a reason it took so long to train good archers...strength to pull a war bow being one, accuracy another.

 

[morgana15]

My book takes place in a medieval-like setting, so I'm assuming they'd be using bows made out of natural materials. I was thinking my character would need to be using a shorter bow, and that she probably wouldn't be very good at archery anyway because of her lack of strength. Thank you for the answers!

I do have another question. Even if two people are using similar bows of a similar size, would it make sense that one person would be strong enough to operate their own bow (like pulling the string back as far as necessary to shoot an arrow) but not the other person's? Or would that be more dependent on the size/composition of the bow?

 

[Noma Galway]

Does similar size also mean similar draw weight? If not, bows can be of similar size and have different draw weights, as far as I know. If this isn't the case, correct me.
If they have different draw weights, yes, a person might not be able to draw a bow of similar size far enough to shoot. Then again, you don't have bring the arrow to full draw before shooting it.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

...would it make sense that one person would be strong enough to operate their own bow (like pulling the string back as far as necessary to shoot an arrow) but not the other person's? Or would that be more dependent on the size/composition of the bow?

It's not size as much as draw weight that matters. Yes, typically heavier draw weights are bigger bows, but I have seen bows with heavier draw weights with smaller limbs than another, lighter weight bow.

So yes, one person could operate their own bow while not being able to pull another's. If you're going for realism though, the difference will be more readily accepted by a reader if you describe a difference in size that corresponds to what the smaller character experiences when trying to pull the heavier bow.

 

[Caged Maiden]

It depends on draw weight. So, for example, I shoot a 25# bow. I can draw my friend's 40# bow, but not more than a few times before I get tired. The reason I use my weak bow is because I often shoot for 9 hours over a weekend. That's just impossible for me with a 40# bow. I CAN draw a 55# bow, but not regularly. And, I discovered I CAN'T draw a 150# war bow past my left shoulder (which was as far as the boys got, too, so I'm happy), and I CAN'T draw a 150# crossbow without a fixed stirrup.

So... if two people are using the exact same long bow, made of oak, backed with linen, say. And one is made with a 60# draw weight and the other with a 30# draw weight. While both bows look identical, the weaker archer won't be able to draw the heavier bow and the person with the heavier bow will have greater speed and accuracy t distances over 40 meters-ish. At 20 meters, both bows will function perfectly well, but the heavier bow will get better penetration. Also, aiming will be different. So... I know my bow. if I want to his a bullseye, I need to aim a little low and to the left. My friend with a 65# bow, actually has to aim his arrow point about 20" below his target to get it to his a bullseye. So, switching bows is very difficult and it's near impossible to say, loot one off a corpse and just start shooting well.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Does similar size also mean similar draw weight?

Not always, but length of the limbs do play a role most of the time.

If not, bows can be of similar size and have different draw weights, as far as I know. If this isn't the case, correct me. If they have different draw weights, yes, a person might not be able to draw a bow of similar size far enough to shoot.

True to a point, however I don't think that would be the case in a medieval setting. Nowadays, sure but that has a lot more to do with design and materials of the modern era.

Then again, you don't have bring the arrow to full draw before shooting it.

No you don't. Though, archers are trained for full draw. To be a good archer you need to have consistency in how you draw, hold, aim, & release. Small variations in technique can make a vast difference in result. Therefore, I'd find it unlikely for an archer to have a partial draw and be on target with any consistency.

 

[Caged Maiden]

For speed rounds, consistently at twenty yards, I sometimes don't do a full draw. But it's so close, who cares. I'm going for speed. i don't aim either.

However, you can bet your butt, if I was trying to kill my food for dinner or bring down a charging wild animal, or trying to kill the guy that just ran off with my horse.. I'd take a second to take a breath and aim and draw all the way, because with archery, you only get one shot. By the time you get your second one, the target is probably too far away. And you almost never get a third chance.

 

[Caged Maiden]

so, just to reiterate about bow sizes, even though it's earlier in this thread.

Longbow= big straight stick of wood when unstrung. Could be harder wood or softer. It's aged and straight, often backed with another material. Sometimes has horn tips for the string to rest in.

Recurve= either one-piece or three-piece bow, with limbs attached to a handle segment. the curve gives it more power without the length of a long bow. The recurve is curved when unstrung.

 

[Malik]

switching bows is very difficult and it's near impossible to say, loot one off a corpse and just start shooting well.

This.

I can use someone else's bow and get a tight grouping (all the arrows near each other in the target), but the grouping will most likely not be anywhere near the bullseye.

 

[Jonathan Waller]

Two longbows can be of similar lengths and different draw weights, due to thickness of the limbs, density of the grain etc. However a bow of a certain length will not generally go over a certain draw weight as the greater strength add more strain to the limbs so one makes a the limbs longer to spread that strain.

As to picking up a bow and being able to use it, maybe not the first shot if you haven't shot it before. but a good archer can be flexible especially if one shoots different bows on a regular basis.

If some one is an archer, not just someone who has done it a few times, then will be strong enough to consistently shoot a bow to do the job they do, whether for hunting or war, in general a bow for war is likely to draw a greater weight than one for hunting.

ALso on full draw and aiming, with instinctive shooting one is aiming as one draws, so when hits full draw one can loose. One can shoot from the chest, but in the middle ages the face, corner fo the jaw back to the ear or even beyond are the normal draw lengths.

The idea of aiming think of the differences between how a modern firearm target shooter takes aim and how a combat shooter aims. Most modern archers, who have been taught through the approach of target shooting aim like target shooters, real "instinctive" shooters aim like combat shooters.

There was also a note on the materials used in laminated bows. The main thing used is horn, which wasn't mentioned.

 

[James Chandler]

This a long thread and I didn't have the patience to read it all, so forgive me if this has been asked before. I know they make modern laminate bows that break down into three pieces, the riser and then the two arms.

Is it plausible for someone to make a short recurve style bow, something like the Mongol bows discussed, that can break down for travel?

 

[Jonathan Waller]

Bows known as carriage bows (long bows) were quite common in the Victorian period and there are records that suggest going back to the Elizabethan and possibly earlier, don't have my sources to hand.
With shorter limbed recurved bows there is less need as they are already pretty short

 

[Joe the Gnarled]

Wow, this has been a great read. Thank you all for the information. Mods, I recommend a sticky.

Caged Maiden: Somewhere around page nine or so you mentioned a horn thumb ring used by the Mongolians. I was wondering if you could describe this device in a bit more detail.

Also, I did a bit of target shooting with compound bows when I was younger, but have not touched it in 25 years or so. Where would you recommend I go to get started again. Short of going to Wal-Mart, buying a cheap bow and firing rounds at home plate on the ball field (probably not the best idea).

Specifically I am interested in traditional long and recurve bows. Clearly I would need someone to coach me on technique, along with lots of practice before I could participate in any tournaments. What groups are out there to help someone like me get started?


Malik: Do you have a thread specifically geared towards hunting, tracking and general outdoorsmanship?

If yes, where is it?

If no, why not? (J/K... but seriously, why not? )



Once again, awesome thread, thank you all for the info.

 

[Caged Maiden]

the horn ring looks like a metal ring one would wear on his finger, but it's worn on the thumb I believe and one end is oblong, sticking out. I'll find a historical one rather than a modern one and get back to you. I'm sure a google search would turn up finds. Might have been from a Chinese tomb.

 

[Malik]

I haven't, but that's such a specific body of knowledge that I wouldn't think that it's that relevant. By which I mean you can get it ridiculously wrong and no one will know. I am perhaps uniquely qualified in this area, though. Start a new thread with your questions on tracking and woodcraft. I'm deployed right now but I'll answer questions as time permits.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Thank you Joe the Gnarled, that is an excellent suggestion!

I agree that this awesome thread should become a Sticky, so it can shine together with Ask me about Swords and the recent Ask me about Warfare.

We all can enjoy benefits from Ask me about Archery, so I shall grant it the Sticky status now.

 

[Ankari]

I haven't, but that's such a specific body of knowledge that I wouldn't think that it's that relevant. By which I mean you can get it ridiculously wrong and no one will know. I am perhaps uniquely qualified in this area, though. Start a new thread with your questions on tracking and woodcraft. I'm deployed right now but I'll answer questions as time permits.

Prepare for the flood of questions. I wonder so much about how hunting and tracking is portrayed in fantasy. I have a feeling 50% of what I read is completely fabricated.

 

[Malik]

Based on what I've read it's closer to 90%. Tracking and hunting - real, boot-to-hoof-in-God's-arena hunting; not sitting in a treestand with a rifle overlooking an alfalfa field - is about as relevant in our modern society as vaudeville. And about as many tricks of either trade are well-known. Bring your questions.

Edit: I kinda don't want to do this, though; I'd like my series' elves to retain their competitive edge.

 

[Queshire]

Well, since this has become a sticky I might as well ask a question. What I've heard suggests that the Japanese style of archery is rather different from the Western version, but my "sources" tend to be anime and fiction and not very clear in the first place, so if anyone can offer some clarity on it, that'd be cool. What I've heard;

>Some Japanese bows sort of snap to the opposite position after being used so that instead of being like ( with a normal bow it ends up as ) Is that true and if so do they need to bend it back in the proper shape or do they just spin the bow around?

>That one of the styles of archery is grabbing the arrow from the quiver, drawing it back in the bow, and releasing it all in one smooth motion with the philosophical idea that the arrow knows where it's going and that aiming only confuses it or something.

>That one of the styles is to draw back the bow and just hold it with the idea that releasing the bow should happen naturally, not as a result of any conscious action.