Should we bother with prologues?

[Kelise]

I went out to dinner with the local writer's centre last night, and asked one of the authors there what he thought of prologues (as he uses them) and how long he thought they should be.

'No longer than five pages. Ten, if you're interesting.'

I asked then, 'but what if you have a lot more information than that?'

"Learn eloquence. Or learn how to weave the information in the first section, up to the first transition point. Large chunks of information will be skipped."


So... what do we think about that? Ten pages at the most? Can we think of authors who've gone beyond that? I've checked all my fantasy books annnd haven't found one yet, though I'm sure there's a few/many who go beyond that 'rule'.

 

[Ravana]

Ravana - Most of the series you've named I've never even heard of LOL.

Uhm… the only ones I mentioned that might qualify as "obscure" are the Wagner series (which deserve to be better known than they are), and possibly the Saberhagen. The rest I chose precisely because they constitute a "who's who" of fantasy writing–which is why in most cases I didn't even give the complete author name: I figured the people here would recognize most of them instantly. In case I was wrong, here they are again in bullet points, for your (and everyone's) convenience:

- J.R.R. Tolkien: the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion ("completed" posthumously by son Christopher)
- Michael Moorcock: Elric, Hawkmoon, Corum, Erekosé, von Bek and other "Eternal Champion" series
- Robert E. Howard: Conan, Solomon Kane
- Fritz Leiber: Fafhrd and Gray Mouser series (aka "Swords" series, as the titles of all but the last begin with that word… and, in a probably intentional irony, the final book ends with it)
- Mervyn Peake: Gormenghast trilogy (the third, however, belonging properly to science fantasy, if not outright science fiction)
- Steven Brust: Taltos series (currently twelve books, projected to go out to nineteen); Phoenix Guard, Five Hundred Years After, and "Viscount of Adrilankha" trilogy
- Glen Cook: Black Company series; Tower of Fear (the stand-alone mentioned); also Dread Empires and Instrumentalities of the Night series (both of which I have yet to read)
- Stephen R. Donaldson: Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever (two trilogies, plus another series in progress)
- Katherine Kurtz: Deryni series (now at fifteen books, not counting two purely background ones)
- Karl Edward Wagner: Kane series
- Roger Zelazny: Chronicles of Amber (two five-volume series); Changeling and Madwand; Dilvish the Damned and the Changing Land
- David Eddings: Belgariad and Malloreon (both five-book series, of which I've only read the first; some connected books as well)
- Fred Saberhagen: the "Complete" [sic] Book of Swords (trilogy), plus six more which I have not read
- Terry Brooks: the Sha-Na-N–er, that is, Shannara series–should not be taken as an example of good writing, so what he does with it is irrelevant; mentioned only because so many people are familiar with it…
- Piers Anthony: Xanth, the quintessential example of the "extended trilogy"–34 books and counting; I've only read the first six, and it's been ages
- Ursula K. LeGuin: Earthsea series (five novels and a story collection)
- C. S. Lewis: Chronicles of Narnia
- Mercedes Lackey: the Last Herald-Mage trilogy (the only works of hers I've read)

Science Fantasy:
- Marion Zimmer Bradley: Darkover series–eighteen novels and a short story collection by Bradley… plus eleven collaborative short story collections, nine published and three forthcoming (posthumous) novels, making this probably the most extensive collaborative world in existence (other than perhaps ones drawing on commercial products, e.g. the D&D worlds)
- Anne McCaffrey: Dragonriders of Pern (no fewer than fifteen books, even if you don't count the ones written or co-written by her son)
- C. J. Cherryh: Morgaine series (originally three books; a fourth was later added)

To which I would add:
- Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (science fantasy tetralogy plus one-book sequel… plus another tetralogy and a trilogy; I've only read the first five)
- Samuel R. Delany: Neveryon books (four titles, some of which repeat material under other titles)

Thanks for the info on the Eddings books, Donny. I went and checked a couple others my recollection was shaky on: Saberhagen employs a mythopoeic prologue about the creation of his Swords, and a very brief mythopoeic epilogue at the end of the trilogy. LeGuin does not use either in any of her books. Lackey has a brief epilogue at the conclusion of the trilogy, plus an appendix containing a handful of songs. Wolfe and Delany, which I initially left out because I wanted to double-check them, do not use prologues in any of the works I've read. Wolfe has brief (we're talking 2-3 page) appendixes in the first three books, giving a few cultural details. Delany has massive epilogues/appendixes in most of the Neveryon books, but they are far from being even "background" material; they're closer to essays on philosophy, writing, or both, which use the books for their background.

All of these authors have written far more than I've mentioned; I'm only commenting on works relevant to the topic (series) and even then only ones I'm sufficiently familiar with to have at least some recollection of (or can easily check, now that I've changed the lightbulb in the basement…). Out of all of the above, only Brust, Cook and Lackey have careers that began as recently as the 1980s; the first two of these are probably the two best fantasy writers going right now. Out of all the "major" fantasy authors I've seen (based on bookstore shelf space, which admittedly may not be the best measure), the only one I'm not familiar with is Robert Jordan–who, for various reasons, I have no intention of becoming familiar with any time soon. (If nothing else, I have enough unread books to keep me a while, and enough other books I want to read but haven't bought yet to discourage me from starting yet another series. ) As for books based on RPGs, computer games, etc.: yes, they "count" in the sense that they are fantasy, and have been published (and gods know they sell enough)… but you're not likely to win too many arguments by relying on those for evidence–not even when it's R. A. Salvatore who's writing them. I guess it's just hard to take seriously books based on a game that was based on many of the works I cited above.…

That having been said: I still stand by my initial response, which is that prologues are appropriate if you have something to say in them. Personally, I would not use them as recaps… not unless my publisher required me to add one in light of a foregoing work having been published too far in the past. Any background information I wanted to make available outside of the main text I'd put in appendices. As opening vignettes–or closing ones, for epilogues–they're okay, as long as you have a good reason to distinguish them in that fashion from the main text… and keep in mind the other point, that many readers won't read them if you do label them that way.

 

[Ravana]

'No longer than five pages. Ten, if you're interesting.' …

"Learn eloquence. Or learn how to weave the information in the first section, up to the first transition point. Large chunks of information will be skipped."

I never apply numerical rules–anything you write should be as long as it needs to be, and no longer.

The second part of his advice, on the other hand, is excellent.

 

[Donny Bruso]

@Ravana: No problem. My computer is conveniently right next to my bookshelf, so quick little research tangents like that are pretty easy.

I unfortunately am ashamed to say I haven't read all or even most of the books in your 'classics' list. Though The Black Company is next on my list as soon as I finish Heroes.

 

[Ravana]

@Ravana: No problem. My computer is conveniently right next to my bookshelf, so quick little research tangents like that are pretty easy.

Hee hee. My computer is next to (okay, surrounded by) one of my sets of bookshelves. Which is almost exclusively reference material. (And, conversely, is far from being all of my reference material.…) Unfortunately, the fiction books are either on a different set of shelves, or stacked in piles of things I intended to look at–and can, as a result, rarely locate.

I unfortunately am ashamed to say I haven't read all or even most of the books in your 'classics' list. Though The Black Company is next on my list as soon as I finish Heroes.

You'll love them. Glad I could be of assistance in providing a "reference list," as far as the rest are concerned.

 

[Mdnight Rising]

I personally use a short prologue in my books if anything to set the scene for the world and the immediate happenings in the story.. Everybook i have read for the most part has had a prologue it would just be wierd for it not to be there. Just like an epilogue concludes a story the prologue is there to open the story itself in my opinion.

 

[Mdnight Falling]

I know saberhagen I've read all his stuff and tolkein.. Everyone knows him.. I just haven't read anything other then the Fellowship of the Ring by him.. Most of the others if they are ones I have heard of I haven't read since I was very young.. back in the late 80's or early 90's.. the newer ones I haven't heard of at all LMAO. But I'm always up to look into new things.. well new for me I MAY... it's a BIG may too..but I may just attach "Year of exodus" not as a prologue.. but as a short story companion to the beginning of my book. For one there's no way I can make it shorter then it's 32 pages.. I've tried it doesn't happen >.< for two, it's vital since without it the reader would get lost very very quickly without it.. Mdnight Rising has read that portion of my book he can tell you it's important LMAO! And no it isn't like the reader knows things the chars don't by reading it. The short story is a common "legend" of the people Xosha, so they've told the story generation to generation. I only have to put it in because the reader would really be lost without it... I just don't know how to present it as anything except a prologue or a prelude Any suggestions?

and Ravana, while I do read fantasy novels.. They aren't all I read. I have a mini library of all kinds of works I read... I just love to write fantasy. I'm sorry my knowledge of all things fantasy isn't as vast as everyone elses >.< I wish it were but for a long time I read mainly Ayn Rand , shakespeare, and Dickens... and nothing else.. I didn't start reading fantasy stuff as a norm until about 1997 when I was 16. Before then I had to read what my schools and my grandparents made me read. when I had time I did read Marion Zimmer Bradley and the like.. that may be backward somewhere it's been a LONG time since I've read anything by him... and things like the Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle and the Never Ending Story I forget the author's last name on that one...

I have been suggested a good book to read recently though and just got a copy of it.. It's called Hyperion by Dan Simmons.. Anyone ever read it?

 

[Mdnight Falling]

I personally use a short prologue in my books if anything to set the scene for the world and the immediate happenings in the story.. Everybook i have read for the most part has had a prologue it would just be wierd for it not to be there. Just like an epilogue concludes a story the prologue is there to open the story itself in my opinion.

That's my understanding of Prologue and Eplilogue too Bry... But really if it's supposed to be short... Should the Exodus just be chapter one and chapter two take place hundreds of years later? What the hell do I do with it >.<

 

[Mdnight Rising]

you might try that i have read books where chapter one took place in one year then skipped forward and back again with each new chapter .. most of the forgotten realms books are famous for it

 

[Mdnight Falling]

you might try that i have read books where chapter one took place in one year then skipped forward and back again with each new chapter .. most of the forgotten realms books are famous for it

It would just be that ONE chapter that would be far back.. the rest are all "present day"

 

[Mdnight Rising]

I think of all people you can make that work ..........

 

[Mdnight Falling]

We shall have to see... If I can find that damn prog to convert the files into something I can read.. I'll post it in the showcase and see if the other members can help me decide what to call it LOL

 

[Mdnight Rising]

lol alright sounds good

 

[At Dusk I Reign]

Prologues are very popular in the fantasy genre. But are they actually helpful?

Orson Scott Card once said the following:

"I have learned, as a book reviewer, that's it's usually best to skip the prologue entirely and begin with the story - as the author should also have done. I have never - not once - found that by skipping the prologue I missed some information I needed in order to read the story; and when I have read the prologue first, I have never - not once - fount it interesting, helpful, or even understandable."

In my current project I do not have a prologue, although I have toyed with the idea.

What do you think? Are prologues worth writing, or should they be skipped entirely?

I wouldn't clean my posterior with anything Card has commited to dead trees, but that's just a personal opinion.

I've always written prologues (numerous abandoned novels festering in my attic attest to that). They're a useful tool, I feel. My current novel (possibly a publishable one) begins with a rather short prologue, but the ideas it contains are a set-up for what comes later. I consider a prologue as a taster, so the reader knows exactly what they're in for. The trick, I've found, is to write just enough to intrigue, but not enough to render what follows redundant.

So, in short, yes: I think prologues are helpful. Indeed, they can be a boon to a writer if used correctly.

 

[At Dusk I Reign]

- J.R.R. Tolkien: the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion ("completed" posthumously by son Christopher)
- Michael Moorcock: Elric, Hawkmoon, Corum, Erekosé, von Bek and other "Eternal Champion" series
- Robert E. Howard: Conan, Solomon Kane
- Fritz Leiber: Fafhrd and Gray Mouser series (aka "Swords" series, as the titles of all but the last begin with that word… and, in a probably intentional irony, the final book ends with it)
- Mervyn Peake: Gormenghast trilogy (the third, however, belonging properly to science fantasy, if not outright science fiction)
- Steven Brust: Taltos series (currently twelve books, projected to go out to nineteen); Phoenix Guard, Five Hundred Years After, and "Viscount of Adrilankha" trilogy
- Glen Cook: Black Company series; Tower of Fear (the stand-alone mentioned); also Dread Empires and Instrumentalities of the Night series (both of which I have yet to read)
- Stephen R. Donaldson: Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever (two trilogies, plus another series in progress)
- Katherine Kurtz: Deryni series (now at fifteen books, not counting two purely background ones)
- Karl Edward Wagner: Kane series
- Roger Zelazny: Chronicles of Amber (two five-volume series); Changeling and Madwand; Dilvish the Damned and the Changing Land
- David Eddings: Belgariad and Malloreon (both five-book series, of which I've only read the first; some connected books as well)
- Fred Saberhagen: the "Complete" [sic] Book of Swords (trilogy), plus six more which I have not read
- Terry Brooks: the Sha-Na-N–er, that is, Shannara series–should not be taken as an example of good writing, so what he does with it is irrelevant; mentioned only because so many people are familiar with it…
- Piers Anthony: Xanth, the quintessential example of the "extended trilogy"–34 books and counting; I've only read the first six, and it's been ages
- Ursula K. LeGuin: Earthsea series (five novels and a story collection)
- C. S. Lewis: Chronicles of Narnia
- Mercedes Lackey: the Last Herald-Mage trilogy (the only works of hers I've read)

Science Fantasy:
- Marion Zimmer Bradley: Darkover series–eighteen novels and a short story collection by Bradley… plus eleven collaborative short story collections, nine published and three forthcoming (posthumous) novels, making this probably the most extensive collaborative world in existence (other than perhaps ones drawing on commercial products, e.g. the D&D worlds)
- Anne McCaffrey: Dragonriders of Pern (no fewer than fifteen books, even if you don't count the ones written or co-written by her son)
- C. J. Cherryh: Morgaine series (originally three books; a fourth was later added)

To which I would add:
- Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (science fantasy tetralogy plus one-book sequel… plus another tetralogy and a trilogy; I've only read the first five)
- Samuel R. Delany: Neveryon books (four titles, some of which repeat material under other titles)

Drop the Narnia Chronicles, Brooks and Piers Anthony, and it's a rather good introductory list. And kudos for having Peake, Kurtz and Moorcock there - too few fantasy 'fans' have ever read them.

 

[Mdnight Rising]

:::chuckles:: that about sums it up

 

[TheHawk]

A mentor of mine once told me that a prologue is usually all about the back-story -forget back-story - the reader wants to know what is happening now, not what happened yesterday.

Take or leave as you desire.

 

[Ophiucha]

Honestly, that is my line for actually reading a prologue. If it is obvious to me that this is backstory - either worldbuilding dump or "this is what happened to the character as a baby" - I am going to skip it. If it is the former, I would rather learn about your world through the immersion, not the bullet points. If it is the latter, I can only assume it was not important otherwise it would have been Chapter One. It's yet to fail me. I can only think of a handful of books that have a "recap" prologue, but I don't really consider those to be prologues. They are recaps. Effectively, "Last Week on Supernatural" clip show sorts of deals. A prologue, for how little I value it, still should only relate to the book in hand, not some previous one.

 

[Amanita]

I can only assume it was not important otherwise it would have been Chapter One.

So, would you rather have the "baby time-event" as chapter one and than a jump to the time where the hero is old enough for the rest of the story to start in chapter two? And what does make that different from a prologue besides the naming? Or do you think that there shouldn't be any important things happening to the character before the story starts?

I'm sorry if my questions sound rude but as I've written somewhere in this thread I think that this is one of the situations where a prologue can be useful and I'd like to know why you disagree.

 

[Ophiucha]

While I personally think the most important thing in a character's life should be what you are writing the story about, there are of course going to be many characters with important events in their past. I question the need to include it right off the bat, of course, but if it is essential, then it should be in Chapter One. Perhaps the best example of this is "The Boy Who Lived", the first chapter of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

The simple fact of the matter is that most people don't read prologues. Many writers do not read prologues, many readers do not read prologues, and if you are including pivotal information in your prologue, you have to accept that most of your audience will not get it until you mention it again. And, frankly, you're going to. You won't say "Corey was raped when she was a little girl," and never bring it up again. Most of the time, these first chapters/prologues should only be used if the consequences of his past are immediate. Harry Potter, going back to that example, opens up living with his abusive aunt and uncle. The first chapter established that he is an orphan, a wizard, and that the Dursleys hate magic. Mostly, though, these sorts of backstories only become relevant once a character is forced to tell others about it for one reason or another. We are meant to learn about it when the others do. He might have a secret, he might be a loner, he might have scars - but we don't need to know why before we even know what he's like today. Indeed, it often works better if we don't