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A Question of Faith

Mindfire

Istar
I've long wondered how people of commited monotheistic persuasion could possibly accommodate fantasy/magic within their personal cosmology - not so much because two belief systems (one personally held, one personally invented) might be inconsistent - but because of what they have in common. The instant you acknowledge one form of supernature as fictional - for whatever reason - it must logically expose all forms of supernature to the same charge of potential fictionality. In other words, the age-old question of faith.

Again, I'm going to echo Foster's words on this, but I'll add the following.

The belief systems in my alternate world have quite a bit in common with Judeo-Christianity. Which is (for me) rather the point. My imagination has one limitation and one only: I cannot imagine a universe in which God does not exist. It would be dishonest to say that I am absolutely incapable of it, but I haven't tried very hard nor do I wish to. So when I create another world I ask myself, "how does the supernatural come into it?" "What are the 'rules' here?" "How would God choose to reveal himself?" I think Lewis and Tolkien asked similar questions.

Now I'm not going to turn my books into sermons. That would be neither fun to write nor read. But I believe that if a writer goes on long enough, their views about the world will inevitably show up in the work. How well they disguise it depends on the writer's level of skill. As a Christian this is more so because my faith is supposed to seep into every part of my being including my writing. The Bible says everything ought be done to the glory of God. Again, I'm not using my work as a soapbox. But in a sense, I see my writing as another way of practicing my faith.
 

shangrila

Inkling
I hope this doesn't sound rude, but I don't understand what the issue is.

You're a Christian. That's fine. I'm not, and to each his own. But that doesn't mean you have to project your beliefs into your stories unless that's what you're specifically aiming to do. It's called fiction for a reason; it's not real. If you had, say, gone out to do some sort of occult thing physically, or wrote a book about how great the devil is or what not, I could understand a conflict with your faith. But as it stands I can't see anything wrong with writing fiction regardless of faith.

And honestly, while I might get flak for this, but if your god has a problem with you expressing yourself creatively, they aren't worth following.
 

danr62

Sage
I don't think it really matters whether the story involves the occult or takes place in our world. I'm a Christian. I also read The Dresden Files, which takes place in the modern world, in Chicago, and involves a lot of occult and pagan ideas in regards to magic and religion. But, for a non-Christian, Butcher also comes awfully close to some Christian themes in his books.

Some Christians who read fantasy probably wouldn't want to read these books because of some of the things they contain. I don't have a problem with it, myself, because I know it's a story, meant for entertainment. I'm not about to go out and start drawing magical circles to summon spirits or anything like that. It's purely speculative fiction.

Now, if I were to start reading real spellbooks and trying the spells in those, that would be a different issue altogether.
 

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
And honestly, while I might get flak for this, but if your god has a problem with you expressing yourself creatively, they aren't worth following

That is such an odd statement. Every religion, whether "real" (from this world) or fictitious (you make up) has a problem with something. Even if you are not a religious person, your moral code prohibits something. Even if you're not a moral person, the country you live in prohibits something. Do we forsake our moral codes and country because they espouse prohibitions that we may disagree?

And just to give an example: It is wrong for a person to express his freedom of speech by mutilating his naked body in public. That is an expression of creativity. But it violates many moral and government laws.

I wouldn't make blanket statements like that.
 
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Mindfire

Istar
I don't think it really matters whether the story involves the occult or takes place in our world. I'm a Christian. I also read The Dresden Files, which takes place in the modern world, in Chicago, and involves a lot of occult and pagan ideas in regards to magic and religion. But, for a non-Christian, Butcher also comes awfully close to some Christian themes in his books.

Some Christians who read fantasy probably wouldn't want to read these books because of some of the things they contain. I don't have a problem with it, myself, because I know it's a story, meant for entertainment. I'm not about to go out and start drawing magical circles to summon spirits or anything like that. It's purely speculative fiction.

Now, if I were to start reading real spellbooks and trying the spells in those, that would be a different issue altogether.

Well, I think it should also be noted that this is one of those areas in which the rule of Conscience is paramount. If my conscience troubles me about Harry Potter or Dresden, I would do well to keep away from them. If your conscience does not trouble you about it, I will trust you to look after your own affairs while I look after mine.

Incidently, I've read Butcher's Alera books, which sparked some curiosity about the Dresden Files. Wikipedia summaries seem promising, and I agree there are some vaguely Christian themes in there. This may cause me to revise my view of Harry Potter. While a distinction between Potter and Narnia or LOTR is obvious, a distinction between Potter and Dresden seems arbitrary. I'll have to give it thought.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I think you are right, Mindfire. I do know Christians who won't read either Potter or Dresden, and the reason is that they show the good guys using what they consider occult-type magical powers.

If your conscience doesn't bother you about Dresden, I'd give them a shot. I've heard they are even better than the Alera books, but I haven't read the Alera books so I can't say for sure.

I don't know that it does much good to speculate as to which god or gods exist, or which are fictional, or whether any of the same are worthy of worship. The OPs question is presented from the point of view of a person who does have a belief system, and it seems to me the helpful answers will start with the premise that the belief system is correct and then attempt to help the OP through the dilemma from that starting point. I'd look at it like this: given the stated belief system of the OP, and the concerns expressed by the OP, what is the best way to address the issue of fantasy and magic within that context?
 

Black Dragon

Staff
Administrator
Everyone,

This has been a great discussion thus far. Many of your points have inspired me to pursue this topic further.

Thanks for being such a great group!
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
Mindfire said:
Yes, magic is prohibited in the Bible. There's no way around it....

....it becomes obvious that the magic the Bible condemns is linked to one of two things: pagan worship (bad for obvious reasons) and involvement of demonic sprits (bad for even more obvious reasons). In our world, the things termed "magic" and "sorcery" are inherently dangerous to the human soul because they put you into contact with powers and spirits that seek your eternal destruction.

This depends entirely on your definition of magic. A previous poster stated that the bible is chock full of magic & I would agree with that. Moses parting the red sea or his actions against the Egyptian oppressors for example. Divinely inspired according to the tale but I'm certain it would look like magic if you had witnessed it yourself (or received the business end).

If it truly bothers you though, there's nothing wrong with portraying that belief, that concern, in your writing. In fact, it may be very interesting to read a story where God has influence in the real world (like he did through Moses) but condemns the use of occult sorcery.

Even the non-religious may find that perspective intriguing. I would.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I hope this doesn't sound rude, but I don't understand what the issue is.

You're a Christian. That's fine. I'm not, and to each his own. But that doesn't mean you have to project your beliefs into your stories unless that's what you're specifically aiming to do. It's called fiction for a reason; it's not real. If you had, say, gone out to do some sort of occult thing physically, or wrote a book about how great the devil is or what not, I could understand a conflict with your faith. But as it stands I can't see anything wrong with writing fiction regardless of faith.

And honestly, while I might get flak for this, but if your god has a problem with you expressing yourself creatively, they aren't worth following.

Shangrila,

I think the issue is one of seeking input on a highly personal matter of ethics and morality. Each person develops their own compass as to what's right or wrong, but, sometimes, it's helpful to pursue outside opinions. This is what the OP seems to be doing.

Since the OP is a Christian, his moral compass is greatly influenced by the Bible. The Bible, which can be difficult to interpret, states that you should avoid magic. The OP wants some additional opinions on whether or not this Biblical prohibition should be applied to his writing fantasy.
 
This depends entirely on your definition of magic. A previous poster stated that the bible is chock full of magic & I would agree with that. Moses parting the red sea or his actions against the Egyptian oppressors for example. Divinely inspired according to the tale but I'm certain it would look like magic if you had witnessed it yourself (or received the business end).

If it truly bothers you though, there's nothing wrong with portraying that belief, that concern, in your writing. In fact, it may be very interesting to read a story where God has influence in the real world (like he did through Moses) but condemns the use of occult sorcery.

Even the non-religious may find that perspective intriguing. I would.

Indeed. Unfortunately, stories like that tend to devolve into eeevil priests standing in the heroes way and a lot of strawmanning.

To answer the main question: I'm a Christian, though I wouldn't presume to claim to be as armourclad in my faith as some here. To me, the important thing to remember is that in fiction everything is to some extent a metaphor. People have been mentioning Harry Potter, but in HP the magic is just a vehicle for a story about love, friendship and the need for tolerance.

You've already said that the message of your book is not 'Sorcery is Rad!' I don't know what the message of your story is, but so long as it isn't anything monstrous then I'd hope a God who loved us enough to send his only son to die would understand.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Whatever Christianity teaches about magic, it also teaches you not to break your conscience, but to educate it instead. You need to figure what you're comfortable with.

I think you should think more about why magic is forbidden and whether those reasons apply to fictional writings. In my opinion, they don't, and fantasy should be judged like anything else - by its character, by whoch I mean the themes and messages it expresses. Even then, it's more about your attitude as a writer, and a person's attitude as a reader, than anything else.
 
Consider, if you will, a story that deals with someone being able to fly.

People can't fly in real life. If you tried to fly you'd wind up hurting yourself, possibly killing yourself. But you can read a story about flying and enjoy it, and--assuming you're not suffering from specific mental health issues--never run the risk of convincing yourself that you can, in fact, fly. You know the book is just a story, and you are not placing yourself in danger by reading the story.

Trying to fly and failing spectacularly is a physical danger. For a Christian, there are spirtual dangers as well--but again, when you're reading a work of fiction, you know the difference between what is real and what is not. You can read a book--or write a book!--with gods, and magic, and things that in this world are not in line with the way we're taught things are, because you know that the book isn't real.

You can read about flying and know not to try flying in real life. You can read about Elric killing people in the name of Arioch the chaos-god and know not to kill people or worship chaos-gods in real life too. :D

I mean, it's silly when you say it out loud, but that's the crux of it. The people who frown at fantasy because it's "evil" are afraid that they won't be able to distinguish fantasy from reality. They're usually the same people who believe that Dungeons and Dragons will make you kill yourself, and who believe that playing World of Warcraft will damage your soul.[1]

The thing is, if you know something is fiction, it's fiction. End of story. I wrote a novel featuring a two and a half meter hyperintelligent bug with three prehensile tails, but I don't believe they actually exist.

So basically what I'm trying to say is, I think you're OK. ;)

=======
[1] They may actually be right about that one. I kid, I kid!
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
I know some Christian people that hate Fantasy in general and especially the Harry Potter series, but not all of them are like that. Many Christians know that Tolkien himself was deeply Catholic, C.S. Lewis was as well... and just take a look at the huge impact that they had to completely change the world of Fantasy literature.

The Bible speaks against Magic, but not in the way that many people imagine: Christianity in those times was against Pagan religions, rituals and human sacrifice, which is what the Bible refers to in those parts. They did not have in mind stories like Harry Potter or the many different styles of Magic that are described in Fantasy stories today.

Religion and Fantasy are two very different things, both are beautiful and part of human life and I see no reason for a conflict to exist between them.
 
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I really did not expect this thread to get so much attention! First off let me thank all of the members who have contributed to this topic!

Earlier today I got home from work and had a pretty stressful day. So I said, "I'm going to play Skyrim for twenty minutes just to unwind and relax." So I began playing and was running around shooting all the guards in the knees (lol) and then I started comparing my video game to my novel. I am running around shooting people in their knees with arrows. But would I do this in real life? While hypothetically speaking it would be funny but the answer is an obvious, no. I play as a Dunmer (Dark Elf) and use magic. Would I use "magic" in real life? No. So I think this can be related to my novel. Like I said before, my novel involves magic. Am I trying to persuade my readers to practice occult magic? Of course not. My mother lent me her copy of "Finding God in Harry Potter" and I highly recommend it to all of you, even if you are not Christian!

Right now, I feel that it is comfortable for me to continue writing fantasy and still stay true to my Faith. I think that's why it is called "faith." Lots of times, there isn't proof or an answer, but I have this faith that I hold onto regardless. I may write stories that involve pantheons of deities that I created but I know them all to be imaginary. I know that they are purely 100% fictional. This goes back to my point about having control. I think that drinking alcohol is fine, just don't go overboard and become drunk. I think that money is fine, just don't become greedy for wealth. If you look at those two examples, they both involve self control. Someone can drink and have enough self control to tell themselves to stop. I think this applies to fantasy literature. You can like something that isn't real and was invented to entertain (movies, books, video games, etc.) but have enough control to not become obsessed over it and lose sight of what is real. If you read Harry Potter and then go out and try to split your soul up and store it in horcruxes then I highly suggest you reconsider!

I have had lots of time to think about this. It's a difficult subject (for me) to approach. In my stories, I try to make sure that they stay away from my beliefs. As in, I wouldn't write a story about Jesus forming a rock n' roll band. I think that would be crossing a line. Now if I wrote a story about a god I invented named Hoggard who made a rock band it would be fine. See the difference? I'm keeping my Faith and my fiction separate. I think this topic was so difficult for me in the beginning because my stories are heavily influenced/involved with magic and (created) deities. My stories have a lot of dark and grim elements in them and sometimes it's not always the good guys that win. But this doesn't mean that I believe in all of those things and am trying to promote them. One of the MC in my novel is actually a god-hating (not my God!) sorcerer that tries to bring about the destruction of Heaven. But that is just a character for my story. And that's it, it's just a (fictional) story. The characteristics of my characters don't really represent mine. My one character is terrified of the ocean. Am I? No. I love swimming in the ocean.

After long consideration and strong discussions with my mother (whom I would say I am closest to and is a strong Christian) I have decided that I will continue to pursue my dream of becoming a fantasy novel author.

EDIT: Black Dragon, I read your article but haven't registered to leave comments. I feel flattered that you were inspired to write an article over something that I posted here. I am glad to hear that you are pleased with this thread. I too am happy to read all of these posts. Not all of them I may agree 100% with but I have enough decency to respect their views, just as they have mine. I appreciate that you have written an article about this and have already "liked" it on Facebook :)

And a special thanks to everyone else who has responded to this and has been polite and mature about it. Thank you.
 
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shangrila

Inkling
That is such an odd statement. Every religion, whether "real" (from this world) or fictitious (you make up) has a problem with something. Even if you are not a religious person, your moral code prohibits something. Even if you're not a moral person, the country you live in prohibits something. Do we forsake our moral codes and country because they espouse prohibitions that we may disagree?

And just to give an example: It is wrong for a person to express his freedom of speech by mutilating his naked body in public. That is an expression of creativity. But it violates many moral and government laws.

I wouldn't make blanket statements like that.
I didn't think I needed to put it in, since I thought it was obvious, but my comment was based purely in the context of what we're talking about; i.e. your god having a problem with you writing fictional works because he doesn't want people to be practicing magic in real life.

Obviously there are lines to draw, but when it comes to something harmless and, ultimately, personal, I don't really see where religion comes into it.

But that's just me. As I've pointed out, I'm not religious, so perhaps I struggle to see how it could affect someone like this.
 

Zophos

Minstrel
First off, I'm non-religious, so feel free to completely disregard my opinion, but:

I think this very topic is addressed in the Bible. In Corinthians, Paul talks about not eating meat if it causes his brother to stumble. That draws, likely indirectly, but in a similar enough fashion that is reflective of the ethic, from a verse in Proverbs IIRC that is somewhat more fatalistic and addresses those who lead the upright astray falling into their own pit. Christ, himself is more specific in Mark when he talks about leading children (perhaps figuratively speaking of the Body of Christ vice actual kinderkin) to sin.

I think there is certainly justification for a belief that writing about magic could be counter to the Christian ethic. It really boils down to the personal decision (though some might regard it as an edict or canonical imperative) of how literally you should take the Bible. If you believe that a 15 cubit wall of water once covered the earth, then I think I could probably guess where you'd come out on the topic of whether you should let your children read Harry Potter books.

The point of that example is not to regard or disregard it as factually or even logically based. The point of that example is there are personal decisions you face every day in faith and life that could lead others astray if they interpret the results incorrectly. Wearing certain clothing, eating certain foods, whispering to your spouse during mass, making eye contact with someone else's spouse during mass, slapping your kids on the rear, not slapping your kids on the rear, any number of things "could" lead others astray. In point of fact and practicality, you often don't have time to deeply consider some of those decisions and they are a reflection of who you really are. That, as simple as it may sound, is really the bottom line in all of this.
 

JBryden88

Troubadour
This is a topic I pondered on as I went to bed.

A little bit of background:
My family is very Catholic. I went to a Catholic Elementry/Middleschool, and my Freshmen Year of High School was a Catholic School. (And honestly? Those were my favorite years in school, ironically considering how I feel about religion these days.)

These days however, I wouldn't call myself Catholic, Christian, or any "established faith." I tend to have a rather broad view. All the major religions past and present have several of the same traits.

- Whether one or many deities, most religions have many of the same concepts. Treating folks how you want to be treated, living your live to its fullest, respecting your neighbor, and so on.

- Most of these deities have an enemy. That enemy could be Satan, any number of demonic figures, they could be ice giants (Norse,) they could be anything. This enemy is usually the personification of evil or wrong stemming from the society they come from. This evil tries to seduce and turn man on said deities.

- Most of these religions have an afterlife. Heaven. Valhalla. Some eternal place where the good people go, and some bad place for the worst kinds of people.

- And many of these religions have some sort of book or story to go along with them. Bible. Quoran. Kaballah. In the case of Norse? Poems and sagas.

So, my views basically stem that whatever is out there is too big to comprehend, and one should just live their lives to their fullest and enjoy it.

So I guess my view comes down to this:

Storytelling is a gift and a curse. If you limit yourself based on a moral code stemming from religion or what not, you're possibly hindering your gift. If you go all out, but are a very firm believer, you might be hurting your own spiritual health. It's a double edged sword, and one that can be walked perfectly if you find your way.
 
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