A woman you can believe in

[Ghost]

I used Erikson merely as a loose example, and no doubt the majority of characters, male or female, will divide opinions. I'm very careful about not portraying women as weak or anything, but this also leads me to not dare write about certain issues such as rape etc.

My post was getting superlong, so I stopped before I got to a few points. Some readers just aren't happy. For all we know, the reader saw the author's name and went into the book thinking, "Men can't write women." Or the reader could've interpreted certain situations through a narrow lense, thinking "I wouldn't do this, so no woman in the entire world would do this." Both of those opinions are silly. Perhaps the reviewer had a point, perhaps not.

It's okay to have a weak woman, even several, because people can be weak in different ways. One woman might be afraid of her husband, another might be more afraid of what society thinks of her, one might be easily influenced and lack her own convictions, and one might be timid and hesitating. I just prefer for them to be more than wilting flowers or sex objects. When thought goes into their circumstances, it goes a long way. I guess that would be hard to do if no women are main characters or secondary characters. I like reading about strong-willed women, but they can't all be strong-willed, either.

I ought to say that I do enjoy some books with unbelievable characters. In my limited reading of the genres, historical romance and paranormal romance often feature female characters whose lives revolve around men and those female characters are weak, helpless and bland. I see the prostitute/virgin thing more often in works by men, but the rest of my complaints were pulled from novels by either gender.

While I can read books like that for fun, I don't look to them for compelling insights or to be moved. I don't remember the characters, only the plot. They're fluff and that's fine.

 

[Anders Ämting]

what makes a female character believable for you?

I dunno, probably the same thing that makes male character believable.

 

[ascanius]

I also see no reason not to address something like rape, if it is pertinent to your story. Again, this is something that exists as part of what we humans are. It is a nasty, evil part of humanity, but a part of it nonetheless. Why put it off limits?

I totally agree with this. There is rape in my story. I will say that having been personally affected by it that it should be done with taste and caution. Educate yourself on it before you write, it is not simple nor something that someone just "gets over." It has a lasting impact on people, and many times you are not aware that it even happened. I think it is a subject where the writer has a duty to accurately portray it. To not do so only furthers the notion that it is a trifle matter that is easily gotten over. the CDC estimates that 1 in 4 girls will experience a sexual assault in their lives. Men also get raped, though their numbers (are very close to that of girls) are difficult to come by because they rarely ever report or talk about it. What I am saying is don't write it from ignorance or the way you view rape now. Give those who have been through it the respect and honor they deserve, don't belittle what happened to them by inaccurate portrayals. rape is the violation of the soul, everything a person is and to say that they wake up the next day unaffected I find disgusting, some do but... What happens is always downplayed, even in everyday society. If you are going to portray it portray the truth for what it is, how it affects those people.

 

[shangrila]

I agree. I have a rape scene in my story but I know it's getting axed in the second draft. If you can't do it well, don't do it at all. At least, not with work you want to show/sell to others.

 

[The Dark One]

I totally agree with this. There is rape in my story. I will say that having been personally affected by it that it should be done with taste and caution. Educate yourself on it before you write, it is not simple nor something that someone just "gets over." It has a lasting impact on people, and many times you are not aware that it even happened. I think it is a subject where the writer has a duty to accurately portray it. To not do so only furthers the notion that it is a trifle matter that is easily gotten over. the CDC estimates that 1 in 4 girls will experience a sexual assault in their lives. Men also get raped, though their numbers (are very close to that of girls) are difficult to come by because they rarely ever report or talk about it. What I am saying is don't write it from ignorance or the way you view rape now. Give those who have been through it the respect and honor they deserve, don't belittle what happened to them by inaccurate portrayals. rape is the violation of the soul, everything a person is and to say that they wake up the next day unaffected I find disgusting, some do but... What happens is always downplayed, even in everyday society. If you are going to portray it portray the truth for what it is, how it affects those people.

I'm going to have to disagree with this - to an extent anyway. Within your context, Acsanius, I'm sure you're right, but there are other contexts. For example, rape can be funny. Do you remember the opening scene to Terry Gilliam's Erik the Viking? The Vikings raid the village and all the women are getting raped except for gormless Erik's victim who gets impatient and complains that he's hopeless.

In real life, rape is horrific, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're talking about writing and (IMHO) writing is always (on some level) about entertaining, stretching, challenging, inverting and subverting. Context is infinite.

 

[ascanius]

@ The Dark One. RAPE IS NEVER FUNNY. What it's funny to be haunted night and day with the constant fear that the person is going to come back and do it to you again? What it's funny to have to relive the experience over and over again when you see the smallest thing that reminds you of what happened? It's funny to live believing that you deserved it, that you asked for it, that you wanted it? It's funny blaming yourself for something that you had no control over. Funny that friends don't understand whats it's like and make comments like, "your still not over that." Funny that you live in constant shame over what happened. Oh yes very funny, I'm laughing my ass off. Yes let's lessen what happens to people on a daily basis by making it "funny." Lets make it a joke, great idea. Lets treat it like something that's no big deal, invalidate something terrible that happens to others for the sake of humor. [Edited by starconstant for graphic imagery and harsh language.]

 

[Feo Takahari]

^^, ^: Okay, not walking into that.

I think there are multiple issues at hand here. For instance, a believable character can still be an unlikeable character, a weak character, and/or a bad role model. In order to determine exactly which of those you need to avoid, you need to determine what you're trying to do. (For instance, if you're writing a story about horrible people doing awful things to each other, it may actually be to your advantage to portray one particular female character as having bought into a cultural narrative of what women can't do, then show how her weakness and refusal to take responsibility for herself leads to her doom.)

 

[The Dark One]

Sigh...as I said: in real life, rape is horrific. But we're not talking about real life. We're talking about writing, and what's more we're talking about fantasy writing where authors ought to be stretching their readers with challenging ideas.

I'm devastated for you if you (or someone close to you) has been violated in real life...but this is a writing (and hopefully free thinking) forum and you cannot expect a bunch of writers to think the same way you do about the craft of storytelling and the way they challenge their characters.

In case you were wondering, there are no rape scenes in my books.

 

[Kelise]

I believe this is a subject we should move on from for now, and return back to the original topic. Let's please remember to try and be as understanding as possible with these delicate topics and try to understand that while it is possible for one person to find a certain topic funny, others simply won't, no matter who wrote it or how they handled it.

As an aside, this is also true for religion, young children being hurt, animals being hurt and probably a few others. Some people can read books including them in different aspects, and some simply can't. We may be a writing forum, but we also have to be respectful whilst discussing them.

This particular topic is known as 'trigger' topic for a reason, and let's please try to have respect for those who have been deeply effected by them.

 

[JCFarnham]

Discussion is fine. If such talk can go at least a little way to educating against, highlighting evil and dealing with a problem inherent in society, then I personally welcome the discussion of difficult topics. Writing should address this and more. That is after all what it's there for right?

What isn't okay is harsh language. I don't find it impossible under any circumstance to use objective, civil words to solve a dispute. Sometimes it's difficult to see through the haze of rage. I understand. Sometimes it's incredibly therapeutic to use language like that (so says the legend that is Stephen Fry). I agree and I understand. I just don't want such things clogging up and derailing decent, honest threads.

Rape isn't cool. We just need to be mature about these things.

I'm not going to issue any formal action this time, but if I do at any time you can be sure it's to allow any future offending parties the chance to cool off and not a personal attack.

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

I believe this is a subject we should move on from for now, and return back to the original topic. Let's please remember to try and be as understanding as possible with these delicate topics and try to understand that while it is possible for one person to find a certain topic funny, others simply won't, no matter who wrote it or how they handled it.

As an aside, this is also true for religion, young children being hurt, animals being hurt and probably a few others. Some people can read books including them in different aspects, and some simply can't. We may be a writing forum, but we also have to be respectful whilst discussing them.

This particular topic is known as 'trigger' topic for a reason, and let's please try to have respect for those who have been deeply effected by them.

With all due respect good Moderator, I believe the topic is relevent to this thread, so long as it remains considered, respectful and mature.

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

Sigh...as I said: in real life, rape is horrific. But we're not talking about real life. We're talking about writing, and what's more we're talking about fantasy writing where authors ought to be stretching their readers with challenging ideas.

I'm devastated for you if you (or someone close to you) has been violated in real life...but this is a writing (and hopefully free thinking) forum and you cannot expect a bunch of writers to think the same way you do about the craft of storytelling and the way they challenge their characters.

In case you were wondering, there are no rape scenes in my books.

I object to that. With the exception of deliberately warped or humourous prose, writing, including fantasy, is very much a reflection of human nature and life. I have to agree with Ascanius, I do not find rape funny in any way, and while I can respect you as a writer it seems to me that you take the stance that writing is a far cry from reality. Sorry if I misinterpret, but while we are dealing with free-thinking, human characters I strongly disagree.

 

[Steerpike]

I think on some level if you're going out of your way to figure out how to write a female different from a male, you've already moved down the wrong path. You should be figuring out how to write your character. Sure, there are generalized differences between males and females, but even in a general sense we're more alike than different, and on an individual level there is so much overlap that if you created a line with stereotypically female characterizations on one end and stereotypically male characterizations on the other, you'd find real people of both sexes at all points along the line. So I just focus on the character.

 

[Steerpike]

I object to that. With the exception of deliberately warped or humourous prose, writing, including fantasy, is very much a reflection of human nature and life. I have to agree with Ascanius, I do not find rape funny in any way, and while I can respect you as a writer it seems to me that you take the stance that writing is a far cry from reality. Sorry if I misinterpret, but while we are dealing with free-thinking, human characters I strongly disagree.

I understand what The Dark One is trying to say, though I can certainly see where people would object. Take Monty Python, for example. In The Life of Brian, Brian's mother is trying to explain to him who his father is. And she starts telling about the Roman centurions who occupied their town. Brian says "You mean you were raped?" Brian's mother says "Well, at first...."

That's generally taken to be a humorous exchange (doesn't work well typing it out, but if you've seen it you know what I mean). So I think in that respect The Dark One notes correctly that the subject is something that has been incorporated into humor for probably as long as humans have been creating humor. The use of it in Monty Python isn't meant as a statement about rape in real life, or as a diminishment of what women go through. Instead, it is a reflection on an absurd character, which is what Brian's mother is throughout. To me, it is so far beyond having a connection to the real issue of rape, that is can't be taken as any sort of commentary on it. If that makes sense.

 

[JCFarnham]

With all due respect good Moderator, I believe the topic is relevent to this thread, so long as it remains considered, respectful and mature.

Aye. And as I indicated I for one will allow it to continue, as you said, with consideration, respect and maturity.

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

I understand what The Dark One is trying to say, though I can certainly see where people would object. Take Monty Python, for example. In The Life of Brian, Brian's mother is trying to explain to him who his father is. And she starts telling about the Roman centurions who occupied their town. Brian says "You mean you were raped?" Brian's mother says "Well, at first...."

That's generally taken to be a humorous exchange (doesn't work well typing it out, but if you've seen it you know what I mean). So I think in that respect The Dark One notes correctly that the subject is something that has been incorporated into humor for probably as long as humans have been creating humor. The use of it in Monty Python isn't meant as a statement about rape in real life, or as a diminishment of what women go through. Instead, it is a reflection on an absurd character, which is what Brian's mother is throughout. To me, it is so far beyond having a connection to the real issue of rape, that is can't be taken as any sort of commentary on it. If that makes sense.

I'm a Python fan myself, and I enjoy a bit of black humour. The thing is though Python is exageratedly ridiculous to the point where it loses believability as something normal happening outside your window, therefore it has that as a kind of safety net because there's no way anyones going to take it as a serious statement. Also that joke was still a sly reference, where as if it had been anything more blatant it would have gone wrong. Serious fantasy however still aims to be believable and therefore needs handling diferently in my opinion, so while I can agree with you I still stand by my previous post.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm a Python fan myself, and I enjoy a bit of black humour. The thing is though Python is exageratedly ridiculous to the point where it loses believability as something normal happening outside your window, therefore it has that as a kind of safety net because there's no way anyones going to take it as a serious statement. Also that joke was still a sly reference, where as if it had been anything more blatant it would have gone wrong. Serious fantasy however still aims to be believable and therefore needs handling diferently in my opinion, so while I can agree with you I still stand by my previous post.

Yes, I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I do think in a serious work, the subject has to be approached in a way appropriate to the work. It's tough. I have a tentative rape (though the actual rape isn't depicted...the scene just ends when the young man forces the woman down and approaches her), and the dilemma posed by it is that I want to redeem this character by the end of the work. So I may cut this scene, I don't know.

 

[Kit]

Brian says "You mean you were raped?" Brian's mother says "Well, at first...."
.

A serious problem I had with the HBO version of Game Of Thrones was Dani's wedding night. In the book, the fact that Drogo had a surprising gentle side on that occasion was pivotal, IMHO. In the miniseries, that was cut and it did seem more like a rape. If there's anything garanteed to get my goat more than chainmail bikinis, it's books/tv shows where women fall in love with their rapists. If only because it sends a really bad message to young people.

 

[Steerpike]

The story line where a woman falls in love with her rapist is hard for me to take seriously as well. Has it ever happened in the history of human kind? Who knows. Truth can be stranger than fiction. It doesn't ring true for me in a piece of fiction. I do differ on a minor point there at the end, though - I don't think a certain approach should be avoided, or a work changed, because it might send a bad message to young people. Particularly when the work is intended for adults.

 

[Kit]

The story line where a woman falls in love with her rapist is hard for me to take seriously as well. Has it ever happened in the history of human kind? Who knows.

Unfortunately, yes. It happens a lot. Way too often. There are countless women in relationships with abusive men, who mistreat them sometimes up to and including repeated rape.

Truth can be stranger than fiction. It doesn't ring true for me in a piece of fiction. I do differ on a minor point there at the end, though - I don't think a certain approach should be avoided, or a work changed, because it might send a bad message to young people. Particularly when the work is intended for adults.

Normally I'd agree with that sentiment- I'm a staunch anti-censorship advocate- but this one is a really difficult issue for me. The ROMANTICIZING of falling in love with one's rapist- as if it's some kind of noble and beautiful thing- ugh. It just leaves a really foul taste in my mouth.