A woman you can believe in

[Steerpike]

Unfortunately, yes. There are countless women in relationships with abusive men, who mistreat them sometimes up to and including repeated rape.

Ah...yes. I worked with a shelter for battered women and saw this as well. I was thinking more along the lines of a stranger rape, where there is no prior relationship between the two, but where the woman later falls in love with the rapist. I haven't seen that particular scenario in real life, but I guess it has probably happened in the past.

I agree with the "ugh" factor on your second point as well. I wouldn't censor it, but I share your sentiment on how well it works (i.e. not at all).

 

[Mindfire]

I think on some level if you're going out of your way to figure out how to write a female different from a male, you've already moved down the wrong path. You should be figuring out how to write your character. Sure, there are generalized differences between males and females, but even in a general sense we're more alike than different, and on an individual level there is so much overlap that if you created a line with stereotypically female characterizations on one end and stereotypically male characterizations on the other, you'd find real people of both sexes at all points along the line. So I just focus on the character.

Not necessarily true. There are subtle differences between how men and women characters should be written. Sometimes a reader can pick up on these unconsciously. You read something a character says/does it and it just seems... off. The differences are hard to quantify, but they're there.

 

[ascanius]

@ The Dark One. I want to apologize for the harsh language and personal attack it wasn't the right way to go about it.

This particular topic is known as 'trigger' topic for a reason, and let's please try to have respect for those who have been deeply effected by them.

I should have thought about that. To anyone who understands what I mean I'm sorry if I did trigger.

Discussion is fine. If such talk can go at least a little way to educating against, highlighting evil and dealing with a problem inherent in society, then I personally welcome the discussion of difficult topics. Writing should address this and more. That is after all what it's there for right?

With all due respect good Moderator, I believe the topic is relevent to this thread, so long as it remains considered, respectful and mature.

I agree. I think this subject should be discussed.

That's generally taken to be a humorous exchange (doesn't work well typing it out, but if you've seen it you know what I mean). So I think in that respect The Dark One notes correctly that the subject is something that has been incorporated into humor for probably as long as humans have been creating humor. The use of it in Monty Python isn't meant as a statement about rape in real life, or as a diminishment of what women go through. Instead, it is a reflection on an absurd character, which is what Brian's mother is throughout. To me, it is so far beyond having a connection to the real issue of rape, that is can't be taken as any sort of commentary on it. If that makes sense.

I understand what The Dark One was saying. I don't know how to explain why I think it is wrong to treat rape with humor, nor why I acted like that. I saw red. I know it's not intended to diminish what happened. And I don't think anyone will understand why I feel the way I do unless you have been personally affected by it, yourself or the ones you love, I HOPE THAT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANY OF YOU.

Unfortunately, yes. It happens a lot. Way too often. There are countless women in relationships with abusive men.

Normally I'd agree with that sentiment- I'm a staunch anti-censorship advocate- but this one is a really difficult issue for me. The ROMANTICIZING of falling in love with one's rapist- as if it's some kind of noble and beautiful thing- ugh. It just leaves a really foul taste in my mouth.

There are many reasons why they "fall in love", if you can call it that, with the perpetrator. It happens a lot, so does returning to the perpetrator especially in the case of CSA. Women are not the only ones who are rapped or stuck in these terrible situations don't forget that. Nor are women always innocent, just like men they can manipulate and abuse others, male or female.

Yes, I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I do think in a serious work, the subject has to be approached in a way appropriate to the work. It's tough. I have a tentative rape (though the actual rape isn't depicted...the scene just ends when the young man forces the woman down and approaches her), and the dilemma posed by it is that I want to redeem this character by the end of the work. So I may cut this scene, I don't know.

Don't cut it out because I got pissed off, or because it's touchy, treat it as you would any other plot device. Like I said there is rape in my story, but if you want some advice don't focus on the rape (which it doesn't seem like you did or are) but focus on the healing afterward, on the aftermath.

It never happened to me and this is not the place to tell these stories. I will say that it has happened to two, possibly three, that I love and two friends, in two cases it was CSA. I don't want pity and neither do they. I think half of why I reacted the way I did was because people don't understand it. Like why would the (I dislike the use of victim, champion seems better) victim return to their rapist? They do for perfectly valid reasons, in some cases and in others not so valid yet valid to them. The worst are those who keep dark secrets, I always cry when I think of them. why don't they tell? Shame for one, guilt, no one will believe them. Making jokes about it just seems so wrong, it just seems to lessen what is happening to them, I know this is not the intention.

I am going to post some links, they may help to understand why I feel the way I do. public: essays & articles - Pandora's Aquarium Effects of Sexual Assault | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network and Escaping Hades: a rape and sexual abuse survivor's site

Edit: I posted the links because like others I don't think censorship is right but believe knowledge is power. If you do write rape into your stories I only hope that it can in some small way break the silence, and stigma associated with it.

 

[Steerpike]

Don't cut it out because I got pissed off, or because it's touchy, treat it as you would any other plot device. Like I said there is rape in my story, but if you want some advice don't focus on the rape (which it doesn't seem like you did or are) but focus on the healing afterward, on the aftermath.

No, I know. I've been debating cutting it for some time, and the reason is that I want this character to be redeemed at the end of the story and I'm having a hard time redeeming him in my own mind after he rapes a girl.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I'm having a hard time redeeming him in my own mind after he rapes a girl.

Good move, Steerpike.

Rape is something I consider unforgivable. It's not a sin like killing the guy who killed your uncle or something like that, where the crime was done in anger and there's an understandable side to it. Rape is pure hate, and it destroys the innocent. To do that to another person then seek redemption... it's like when ex-Nazis who ran concentration camps want to be forgiven or just be left alone. Why should anybody care what they want? Did they care what those Jewish families wanted? I don't know how many of your potential readers would be as unforgiving as I am, but I think you found the right reason to cut that plot device.

 

[ascanius]

Good move, Steerpike.
Rape is something I consider unforgivable. It's not a sin like killing the guy who killed your uncle or something like that, where the crime was done in anger and there's an understandable side to it. Rape is pure hate, and it destroys the innocent. To do that to another person then seek redemption... it's like when ex-Nazis who ran concentration camps want to be forgiven or just be left alone. Why should anybody care what they want? Did they care what those Jewish families wanted? I don't know how many of your potential readers would be as unforgiving as I am, but I think you found the right reason to cut that plot device.

While I understand what you mean, and don't think I could ever personally forgive anyone for such a crime it's not that simple and I don't have any right to. Aside from a few cases I've heard of, one where the person never considered what he was actually doing to be rape (Date rape). Most often the perpetrators were victims themselves at one point, especially with CSA. It's no excuse but how can you judge someone when you cannot understand what is going on.

@Steerpike. While I understand what you mean instead of thinking of your character as imaginary imagine her as real. If you had a friend who was raped and is healing from the process it has nothing to do with you. You may think she should tell, you may think you should hire a thug and beat the hell out of him. You feel the need to push her towards certain things, help, therapy and what ever. You can see she is in pain, you know what she is doing wrong, you know that guy isn't right for her, you know she should eat more. The plain fact is it what you think and feel doesn't matter. The only thing you can do is support her because you cannot heal her she has to do it. She doesn't need anyone telling her what she is doing wrong, as I have had this pointed out to me, she does that enough already. If she decides to forgive him it's her choice and not yours or anyone else's, if you think he is not redeemable it doesn't matter. Sometimes this happens and people do forgive their perpetrators, I don't know how often, if they feel they are genuinely sorry. This is what I mean by understanding and focusing on the aftermath and healing. No one looks at these things, the rape is looked at often times in graphic detail for it's own sake then done that's it, everyone has put it behind them. Or you get those cases where a woman goes back to the abusive husband, or even their rapist and we are shocked and say she is stupid, have any of us gone through that? Can any of us claim to understand her reasons, no.

I guess what I am saying is this. It doesn't matter if you cannot redeem him, what matters is if she can and wants to forgive him, if he can redeem himself in her eyes. Don't take that power to choose from her, it has already been done.
As Ravana already knows I have had the same struggle as you. I have a character who gets raped then ends up having to marry her rapist. I had to go back and rethink things and it took a while to realize what I just told you. You don't have to justify your dislike but you do have to give that character the best you can. Treat the character as if they were real and don't treat them like the victim but the champion they are.

 

[The Dark One]

Thanks Ascanius, apology accepted, and I'm really pleased because in all honesty I was contemplating leaving the forum.

Of course in all likelihood, I wouldn't be missed. I'm fairly new to mythic scribes and none of you know me, but I'm not new to writing and I possibly do have something to contribute. On a personal level, I really enjoy talking to other writers but I was wondering whether this forum was for me.

For your information (for those who are still reading this post) I am a lawyer and married to the love of my life. The idea of rape - in real life - is so utterly repugnant and alien to me I can hardly find the words to express it (which is unusual, believe me).

But when I come on these forums, I'm not talking about real life and I don't expect anyone else to be. To put this in a bit of perspective, what percentage of novels would include at least one death? I've done no research, but I would estimate over 95% of novels, and many of those novels would include multiple deaths...even thousands of deaths...many of them deliberately and horribly inflicted. How affected is anyone by these fictional deaths?

Counter that with real life...in my local community, there was an accidental death of a young boy about a week ago and it's had major repercussions. Hundreds of people are absolutely devastated about it and some will take years to recover. The parents, of course, will never be the same.

Most people who live to (say) 50 would go through grief numerous times in their lives, but it doesn't stop them from enjoying a murder mystery or Star Wars or even Saving Private Ryan, mainly because they know the deaths aren't real deaths (with the partial exception of Private Ryan).

Similarly, rape in fiction is not real rape, but it is less frequently explored than murder so we are less inured to its impact. I was grateful to Steerpike for his/her (I told you I was new) post about the Life of Bryan. It reiterated my own point about Erik the Viking but what makes the scene funny? It's not the rape (or the attempted rape in Erik's case) taht is funny, it's the manipulation of the audience's natural horror of rape that is funny. We laugh because we did not expect the punchline PLUS we know it's not real.

Despite being (to all outward appearances) a fairly staid and bourgeois fellow, in my stories anything goes. I like to challenge The Rules and I like to test my characters. Context is critical. If I can't discuss the testing of rules and boundaries - in fiction - with my peers, then my interest in a particular forum is likely to wane.

Some of you may think good riddance, and I apologise if I seem like an arrogant bastard.

I probably am an arrogant bastard, but I have quite a lot to contribute re writing.

 

[JCFarnham]

The issue of trigger topics is something we staff types are discussing at present and we'll be sure to let you know on the ruling.

In the mean time, feel free to discuss the push of boundaries. If not with others then with me. I may never really do it in my fiction as such yet, but then again I've only been noveling since last NaNo, though I've been "writing" for at least a decade in other ways, so while I'm not exactly trying to find my voice I'm still feeling my way around the long format. You see what I mean? Once I know what I can deal with skill wise I fully intend to challenge, more importantly, myself. I'm a great fan of envelope pushing fiction you see, the ground breakers, the post-moderists of any generation... though I'm not a literary fiction writer

Arrogance isn't knowing what you like and being honest about it. Arrogance to me is taking that position and some how suggesting others are wrong or lesser beings for not agreeing with you.

So no, you're fine haha.


Back on topic!

There are many documented cases of women who fall in love with very dangerous men. Its the whole Bonnie and Clyde scenario, the dating men on death row scenario. That man wasn't nice, not in any sense of the word, not even to her, but for some reason she stayed by him. There's quite a debate on the psychological why's in certain circles.

It is however one psychological subject I can't get my head around. As is usual for me if I can't understand it completely, I'm not at all that comfortable with it. To this end, I'm hesitant to touch power roles and gender issues. Too much hostility and too many people who could get the wrong end of the stick. This is why I would personally cut the kind of scene discussed above. I whole heartedly advocate that difficult issues should not be avoided and that in some case its beneficial to get everything out in the open, but unfortunately I'm too well aware that certain things can taint peoples view of me as a person, so likewise me as an author.

My goal is to provide enjoyment that sticks with you, that keeps you thinking in some way.

Strong women in fiction is a difficult subject. We all know that everyone is an individual. We all know that some women just don't have any interest in playing traditionally male roles in society. That doesn't make them weak, or unhappy, quite the opposite some times. This becomes difficult to portray in fiction. Peoples own experiences colour their enjoyment of a certain character. Therefore, even if one means a character to be happy and content in a traditional female role, it'll often be taken as sexism, even more unfortunately especially if you're male.

 

[The Dark One]

I whole heartedly advocate that difficult issues should not be avoided and that in some case its beneficial to get everything out in the open, but unfortunately I'm too well aware that certain things can taint peoples view of me as a person, so likewise me as an author.

This is exactly the point. You as a person, and you as an author, IMHO are two different people. In fact the more books you publish, you are arguably numerous personae.

I discovered this the first time I had a book published (which has been reasonably popular). People expect you to be a particular way, especially if they liked the book and identified with the main character(s). You quickly learn that there is no future in disappointing your fans and not being the person they expect you to be (and you will never quite be the person they expect you to be).

I now have two books out and none of the main characters are anything like me, I think. Once your book goes out into the world you have to just stand by it and let the public think what they will. No matter what a nice person you are, in reality, there will be people who interpret your book in ways that will irritate you, disgust you or make you want to just give the whole thing away.

You can't seem like a good person to everyone so don't bother trying...and write whatever you are comfortable writing.

I think I've probably pontificated enough on this subject so shall now leave the field to others.

 

[Steerpike]

This is exactly the point. You as a person, and you as an author, IMHO are two different people. In fact the more books you publish, you are arguably numerous personae.

I think this is exactly right. Too often, people conflate the two. On the general subject of humorous treatment of difficult topics, I can't think of any subject that I've not seen given a humorous treatment at least once. I don't think anything is out of bounds for humor. As you noted, above, the humorist does not poke fun at the underlying topic itself, but uses it as a tool, for things like social commentary, or to render a character absurd, or to turn an audience's expectations against them. Humor can also take the edge off a difficult subject and ease the way for serious discussion; it's a known human coping mechanism - a way by which we are able to process information at an emotional distance. I believe the "gallows humor" of people surrounding by death or other horrors is well-documented.

 

[Kit]

The issue of trigger topics is something we staff types are discussing at present and we'll be sure to let you know on the ruling.

Please, no censorship. I am on a few boards that are so heavily "moderated" that any disagreement at all gets the entire thread immediately deleted out of existence. Hate that.

The delete key is our friend. There is also the "ignore" list, which allows you to effectively blank a specific poster out of your personal reality if s/he consistently offends you.

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

Thanks Ascanius, apology accepted, and I'm really pleased because in all honesty I was contemplating leaving the forum.

Of course in all likelihood, I wouldn't be missed. I'm fairly new to mythic scribes and none of you know me, but I'm not new to writing and I possibly do have something to contribute. On a personal level, I really enjoy talking to other writers but I was wondering whether this forum was for me.

Please don't leave the forum Dark One, everyone has something to give to and learn from this place, so apologies if I contributed to your um...baptism by fire. I personally hold no grudges on this forum, so don't feel you have to withdraw from the discussion.

 

[Amanita]

It’s, well, interesting to see how a thread about writing female character turns into a heated discussion about rape.
I’m against excluding specific subjects from the forums as well, at least, as long as they’re related to the stories we’re writing which is the case with rape, some of you might remember my own thread about this issue in my story.
I have to admit that The Dark One’s choose of words in his first post about the topic rubbed me the wrong way as well. Not being personally affected by rape, it didn’t inspire a response quite as heated as that of Ascanius but it was definitely something that made me „stumble“ while reading.

For example, rape can be funny.

just isn’t something which should be posted right after someone describing their own experience with the subject in my opinion.

The question if everything can and should be made fun of, no matter how many people are hurt by this is being widely discussed, especially concerning religion. The most common viewpoint seems to be that allowing this is an important part of a free, modern, western society. Personally, I don’t agree but this might have to do with my own experience with being made fun of as part of bullying. Violent reactions to verbal provocation aren’t acceptably of course, but I understand strong verbal reactions and don’t see anything wrong with them. Someone who wants to make fun of something extremely painful for many people must expect heated responses and shouldn’t want to run away right away because one person gives such a response. Someone who plays with fire has to expect that they might get burned occasionally. It’s part of the fun, isn’t it?
Some people might claim that I don’t have a sense of humor but in some circumstances I do. And I should be careful because some of the things I do find funny might be pretty offensive to others as well.

Another problem with rape in fiction besides the use in humor is the romantisation. Sexual fantasies involving rape are supposed to be quite common and I can sort of see the appeal that fantasies of, what do I know, a handsome and strong warrior abducting someone might have. I have no intentions whatsoever to make others feel guilty about their fantasies but I do think that this kind of thing shouldn’t be in fiction directed at a general audience as well. Make the handsome warrior abduct her and have them have consensual sex later, this should be doable as well.

Rape is an extremely sensitive issues not least because of the related power dynamics and gender issues which make it feel problematic at least, if men make fun of it. War time situations show, that many probably „ordinary“ men of all ethnic groups are suddenly prepared to committ this crime if the situation allows it.
Non-sexual torture is another issue that should be treated with much more respect in my opinion. Unlike in the case of rape, very light treatment of this devastating event is extremely common and obviously expected.

But returning to the original topic: I don’t believe that writing women in „weak“ situations is something that should be avoided, if it’s avoided to openly, the story might not feel realistic anymore either.
A strong female character isn’t one who never needs help from other women or men, but one who has role of her own and doesn’t only exist as love interest, person the hero can show his courage on or quota girl inserted by the author to be politically correct.
Oh well, plenty of stuff on the rape issue and two paragraphs about the original topic…

 

[ascanius]

Similarly, rape in fiction is not real rape, but it is less frequently explored than murder so we are less inured to its impact. I was grateful to Steerpike for his/her (I told you I was new) post about the Life of Bryan. It reiterated my own point about Erik the Viking but what makes the scene funny? It's not the rape (or the attempted rape in Erik's case) that is funny, it's the manipulation of the audience's natural horror of rape that is funny. We laugh because we did not expect the punchline PLUS we know it's not real.

I know rape in fiction is not real. But for me it is a reality for those I love. I cannot watch movies that I could watch three four years ago if there is rape in it, never thought about watching a movie with humor in it which is a little sad. Even books I read in the past that had rape in it, it was always portrayed as it happened then it's done with no lasting harm, like a sprained ankle. Now I think of that book and am disgusted by the authors ignorance, still good books aside from that aspect. Hell if you posted that a year ago I wouldn't have thought anything about it and probably would have agreed with you about contexts where it is funny. Lately though.... A lot of it has to do with my dislike about how it's viewed by society in ignorance. I'm not trying to tell you your still wrong only try to explain why I reacted the way I did.

Despite being (to all outward appearances) a fairly staid and bourgeois fellow, in my stories anything goes. I like to challenge The Rules and I like to test my characters. Context is critical. If I can't discuss the testing of rules and boundaries - in fiction - with my peers, then my interest in a particular forum is likely to wane.

I agree and enjoy when the boundaries are pushed. Personally I prefer a more intellectual approach but need to remember, as my sister puts it get out of my own head, that others approach things differently.

The issue of trigger topics is something we staff types are discussing at present and we'll be sure to let you know on the ruling.

Please don't censure the posts because of this, I over reacted to something and the other members here should not be punished for something I did.

Sansa stark in ASOIF is girly, she likes dresses, being prim and proper and is/was concerned about marriage and making babies excluding all else. She has no spine, whines a lot, is/was concerned with only herself and her marriage. Do I hate her, yes, Is she weak? Yes but she is weak, in my opinion, because she is so concerned with herself and her wants. She is weak because she is so easily controlled and manipulated and willing to betray others. Is she believable? Yes. I think the whole strong and weak thing can only really apply to character traits and shouldn't be dependent on the sex of the character. I think for a female character to be believable she needs to be female first. Can she be expected to move 80lb bags of cement all day? No, I can barely do that even when I'm in shape. Is violence going to affect her differently? yes unless she is used to it. Should it matter if a female character is portrayed as being girly. No so long as equal time is spent making that character unique and individual as would be spent with a male character. I also don't think female characters should be held to the same standards that a male character is held to. To say a character is weak or stereotypical because she doesn't jump into the fray wielding a battleaxe hollering at the top of her lungs is simply stupid. To me if I can imagine meeting them in the real world then they are believable.

 

[The Din]

Peter Griffin after getting buggered in prison: 'Now all my farts sound like the wind.'

Meg after getting captured by home invaders: 'Are you going to have your way with me now? ...I won't scream or anything.'
Robber: 'No, oh god no.'

Rape can be funny. As anything can, given the right context. No need to bite poor old Dark One's head off for saying as much.

As for strong women, sure have some, but don't make every one of them 'strong' (ie Jordan). In our own world there are plenty of weak women and (before you lot start PMSing all over the place...) men. I like the strong women who are women, not mighty warriors with a feminine name(Cersie rather than Brienne). Give them a sharp set of wits and an eye-catching bosom, or lack there-of. Let them manipulate us boorish males and other empowering stuff. Just don't have some 80 pound beauty put a bunch of UFC-equivelent warriors on their arses (lest their name is Yoda).

And, by gods wrinkly balls, don't censor this site more than it already is.

 

[Steerpike]

I concur on the censorship issue. I've been on non-writing forums that aren't censored at all. For some reason, writing sites seem a bit prone to it. This site doesn't seem that way to me. As writers, I think you should all find censorship fairly repugnant.

 

[Ankari]

No censorship please.

 

[Ghost]

While I don't support banning certain topics, I do hope people will employ more tact. It was odd that one poster mentioned a bad experience. The next poster essentially disagrees with the entire post, says sometimes rape is funny, and then goes on to talk about the importance of context of all things.

Another thing, I don't understand how a thread about the believability of characters became about situations where rape is supposedly funny. In humor like that, the point is usually to be absurd, not believable. It's a different strategy for a different purpose. (If Gardens of the Moon is a humorous novel that plays on absurdity, then I apologize for being a nitwit.)

Anyway, a few points I made about unbelievable characters related to stock and flat characters. But a female character who is so unbelievable she's ridiculous? That would be one who makes nonsensical decisions, usually to forward the plot. It happens to characters of either gender. Perhaps the author didn't think about why the character would act this way. Perhaps the author thought about it but failed to set it up satisfactorily. The solution is to look at it from the character's perspective and to leave hints about her motives so the reader isn't in the dark.

Or ignore that one reviewer on Amazon, which would honestly be my approach. :wink:

 

[Philip Overby]

Please, no censorship. I am on a few boards that are so heavily "moderated" that any disagreement at all gets the entire thread immediately deleted out of existence. Hate that.

The delete key is our friend. There is also the "ignore" list, which allows you to effectively blank a specific poster out of your personal reality if s/he consistently offends you.

This only happens here in extreme circumstances. If members are generally civil and don't resort to burying other people's beliefs or viewpoints (or personally attacking them) almost all topics are open for discussion. There are rules about conducting yourself on specific topics and we expect them to be followed. I think the forum has flourished because we don't let members who try to poison the well stick around.

I want to go back to the original topic though. I think writing women doesn't have to be much different than writing men. I don't really treat it much differently myself. If the only thing a reader is thinking about a woman character is "she's not believable" then she must not be a very interesting character. Cool characters are cool characters, regardless of their gender.

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

This only happens here in extreme circumstances. If members are generally civil and don't resort to burying other people's beliefs or viewpoints (or personally attacking them) almost all topics are open for discussion. There are rules about conducting yourself on specific topics and we expect them to be followed. I think the forum has flourished because we don't let members who try to poison the well stick around.

I want to go back to the original topic though. I think writing women doesn't have to be much different than writing men. I don't really treat it much differently myself. If the only thing a reader is thinking about a woman character is "she's not believable" then she must not be a very interesting character. Cool characters are cool characters, regardless of their gender.

Indeed, the only trolls you'll find here are the ones with green skin who live in the caves and can only be killed with acid.

I think it was my fault that the topic veered to rape. Had I known the response I would have started a new thread.