An attempt to have a meaningful discussion on dealing with sensitive topics

[BWFoster78]

Perhaps I misunderstood the point of the whole exercise.

I thought the idea was to encourage members to show high levels of civility and sensitivity when discussing topics that can be expected to have a significant emotional impact on people.

I would be surprised if misleading, dramatic, insulting, childish, invective is a topic that falls under that rubric.

And surely a defender of pure, unadulterated, insensitive speech as a key learning tool like Hainted can survive a spirited defense of the new policy unscathed.

Russ,

I'm not as concerned with Hainted as I am with the overall principle. As stated in my reply to Mythopoet, I'm probably alone in my belief that that particular principle applies here.

 

[Mythopoet]

Mythopoet,

I quite often notice that I am alone in my beliefs around here, which is fine, but I like to point them out anyway. Not sure if it makes any sense to do so most of the time, but there you have it ...

I guess I'm kinda thinking of mods like parents. If I want my kids not to cuss, my first step is not to cuss.

Even if I'm justified in cussing. Even if their behavior makes me want to cuss. I think that, probably, it's best for me not to cuss.

Maybe the analogy doesn't apply well in this case, though, and it's just me. It's not exactly the hugest of huge concerns for me.

Mods are not parents. They're more like policemen.

If this isn't of much concern to you, then maybe you should stop continuing to press the issue over and over and over. If I was your mom I would have snapped by now.

 

[Russ]

Russ,

I'm not as concerned with Hainted as I am with the overall principle. As stated in my reply to Mythopoet, I'm probably alone in my belief that that particular principle applies here.

I quite liked your parent analogy. Sometimes children need a little discipline. I am thus quite sure it hurt the Mods more than Hainted

 

[BWFoster78]

Mods are not parents. They're more like policemen.

It seems like police departments are having a lot of success with community policing initiatives that, imo, more resemble parenting tactics than traditional police tactics. Just a thought ...

If this isn't of much concern to you, then maybe you should stop continuing to press the issue over and over and over. If I was your mom I would have snapped by now.

I enjoy chatting, stating an opinion and replying to follow up comments. If you're tired of the conversation, why did you reply?

 

[Mythopoet]

I enjoy chatting, stating an opinion and replying to follow up comments. If you're tired of the conversation, why did you reply?

Because I feel compelled to argue bad logic and poor thinking.

 

[Devor]

I'm kinda feeling right now, though, that the mods are saying, "Y'all really need to be more sensitive." Yet the mods are sending this message in a less-than sensitive manner.

. . . . . seriously, you've really taken quite a few skill points in trolling, BWFoster.

We're discussing how to handle sensitive topics, which were named specifically in the guidelines. And the chief among them is rape.

Surely you can see a difference between someone calling a bad statement "ludicrous" after a lengthy back and forth - we can all get heated when pushed enough - and someone coming into a discussion about rape with, "So, the villain says if you don't rape her, he'll rape her twice," which happened in a thread not long ago.

We're not asking everyone to walk on eggshells with PC sensitivity in their every post. Not at all. We're just saying, if you're taking a position on rape or gender or race or whatever else that's driving people bat shit crazy, stop and try not to or we'll shut it down. It's that simple.

 

[BWFoster78]

Because I feel compelled to argue bad logic and poor thinking.

I have similar feelings. See, we agree on something!

 

[Svrtnsse]

i have similar feelings. See, we agree on something!

its the end of the world!!!!!!!

 

[BWFoster78]

. . . . . seriously, you've really taken quite a few skill points in trolling, BWFoster.

We're discussing how to handle sensitive topics, which were named specifically in the guidelines. And the chief among them is rape.

Surely you can see a difference between someone calling a bad statement "ludicrous" after a lengthy back and forth - we can all get heated when pushed enough - and someone coming into a discussion about rape with, "So, the villain says if you don't rape her, he'll rape her twice," which happened in a thread not long ago.

We're not asking everyone to walk on eggshells with PC sensitivity in their every post. Not at all. We're just saying, if you're taking a position on rape or gender or race or whatever else that's driving people bat shit crazy, stop and try not to or we'll shut it down. It's that simple.

Devor,

I am not equating the two at all, and I don't think everyone should walk on eggshells.

IMO, post #90 was overly harsh, especially coming from a mod. If y'all don't feel the same, fine.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Let's not panic too much. I admit, post #90 was as angry as some of the mod posts on the writing site I used to post on. But nobody got banned because of it. We've been allowed to spend all these pages discussing a mod decision, instead of the thread being locked and bans being handed out. And the mods aren't smugly insinuating that anyone who disagrees with them is a rapist. This site hasn't turned into the site I fled from, and with its current openness and room for discussion, I don't think it could.

 

[BWFoster78]

Feo,

I agree. Never meant to imply that the post veered off the deep end. Overall, things are very well run here, especially considering some of the sites out there ...

It's kinda like with my writing, though. Right now, I'm in a really cool place. When I read over something I wrote a few months ago, I don't hate it. That's a big deal for me.

I really think that I actually have a chance of entertaining people now, which has been my primary goal.

Despite liking where I am, though, I'm always thinking, "What can I do better?"

 

[ascanius]

ok, While I really dislike this whole policy and how it was enacted. The one thing that has made me think about things differently is the idea of a family friendly site. I don't know who proposed the idea but I, and again I dislike the idea but find it the lesser of two evils, I think maybe a group devoted to such topics might be a good idea.

How I see this working is the new policy and it's enforcment with extreme prejudice stands on the normal forums, while in the group threads like the slavery thread are allowed to exist until deemed otherwise.

I think all normal forum rules should apply, along with a few guidelines, and disclamer at the top letting everyone know the topics being discussed.

Also to avoid a small group of people discussing these topics in isolation, frankly its kinda creepy, I think it would be nice to be able to have threads posted on the normal forum and if certain topics are introduced, or if the thread is about certain topics then maybe it could be moved to the group. That way everything could go as normal and when the need requires it could be moved and those wishing to of their own will can continue with the conversation.



Lets try to find a solution, I don't think complaining about this is going to change anything at this point, So what are your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Trick]

ok, While I really dislike this whole policy and how it was enacted. The one thing that has made me think about things differently is the idea of a family friendly site. I don't know who proposed the idea but I, and again I dislike the idea but find it the lesser of two evils, I think maybe a group devoted to such topics might be a good idea.

How I see this working is the new policy and it's enforcment with extreme prejudice stands on the normal forums, while in the group threads like the slavery thread are allowed to exist until deemed otherwise.

I think all normal forum rules should apply, along with a few guidelines, and disclamer at the top letting everyone know the topics being discussed.

Also to avoid a small group of people discussing these topics in isolation, frankly its kinda creepy, I think it would be nice to be able to have threads posted on the normal forum and if certain topics are introduced, or if the thread is about certain topics then maybe it could be moved to the group. That way everything could go as normal and when the need requires it could be moved and those wishing to of their own will can continue with the conversation.



Lets try to find a solution, I don't think complaining about this is going to change anything at this point, So what are your thoughts and opinions.

I believe it was me who proposed the idea, though others may have also. My thought was that a private group could form and then it is not in everyone's face. I'm not advocating insensitive attitudes but I think it should be acknowledged that members have different tolerances for these things and with good reason. For those of us with the yearning to explore these darker themes, it may be good to have a group like this. It would take work to keep it from going overboard (you never know when a weirdo is gonna show up) but perhaps that could be fixed with certain requirements to join etc.

AISB, this is all up to Black Dragon and the Mods. I think these discussions have merit but they shouldn't be shoved in every member's face. They would still need to be civil and some things this new rule seeks to eliminate should still not be tolerated in the group (I think) but it could work...

 

[BWFoster78]

One forum that I go to that is heavily moderated is Saintsreport. As you could guess, things can get pretty heated, especially when lamo Falcon fans log in to start trouble.

One thing cool that they do at that site is that, instead of outright closing threads, they move them to an unmoderated forum. Once a thread enters that forum, users are free to say whatever they want, and everyone knows upon entering that domain to expect things to be the wild, wild west.

Not sure if something like that would work here, but I thought it's an interesting way to handle things ...

 

[Trick]

Is the unmoderated forum a private thing? Or will it come up in google searches etc?

 

[BWFoster78]

Is the unmoderated forum a private thing? Or will it come up in google searches etc?

Seems like you could easily set such up to only be accessible to those with a certain number of posts. It's my understanding that the Showcase is, in that manner, not searchable. Though, my understanding of such matters is dependent on hazy memories of reading about it in threads long ago.

 

[ascanius]

I believe it was me who proposed the idea, though others may have also. My thought was that a private group could form and then it is not in everyone's face. I'm not advocating insensitive attitudes but I think it should be acknowledged that members have different tolerances for these things and with good reason. For those of us with the yearning to explore these darker themes, it may be good to have a group like this. It would take work to keep it from going overboard (you never know when a weirdo is gonna show up) but perhaps that could be fixed with certain requirements to join etc.

AISB, this is all up to Black Dragon and the Mods. I think these discussions have merit but they shouldn't be shoved in every member's face. They would still need to be civil and some things this new rule seeks to eliminate should still not be tolerated in the group (I think) but it could work...

All things considered it might be the best middle ground, so kudos to you.

It's the weirdo things the troubles me the most, especially with the topics being discussed, and the isolation from the rest of the thread it kinda makes it easy for such idividuals to show up. While is still don't completely understand the new policy, at least not how it's applied, I think it might be good to have have it apply to the group just to a lesser extreme as the rest of the forum.

It's kina why I like the idea of of having threads moved to the group when needed.

Edit: correction

I'm curious What the Mods think?

 

[Trick]

All things considered it might be the best middle ground, so kudos to you.

It's the weirdo things the troubles me the most, especially with the topics being discussed, and the isolation from the rest of the thread it kinda makes it easy for such idividuals to show up. While is still don't completely understand the new policy, at least not how it's applied, I think it might be good to have have it apply to the group just to a lesser extreme as the rest of the forum.

It's kina why I like the idea of of having threads moved to the group when needed.

Edit: correction

I'm curious What the Mods think?

I'd want one Mod (or more) to join it and help keep it sane. I think that remains necessary regardless. I also think the basic rules of MS should still apply. I don't need someone talking contemporary politics or spewing religion hate speech while I'm working with others to get better at writing. That's one of the reasons I love it here, that crap is left at the door (and occasionally shoved back out).

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Late to the party as usual - but if I could throw my two cents in - what about reviewers and sensitive topics? I mean we're all here wondering how best to go about broaching certain sensitive topics with other authors in an effort to improve our writing. And to a certain extent we are all walking on eggshells, trying not to push certain buttons. And for me that's all right though it sometimes makes open discussion a little more tricky. But what do you do / think when you leave moderated fora like these, get your reviews etc from Joe Public, and realise they aren't moderated at all.

The reason I ask is that I got a review maybe a year ago that actually troubled me. I won't mention the name or the book, but it made me question the implicit assumption I have - and probably the same one most people have - that we're pretty normal. The rest of the world is like us.

To set the scene the entire review was about one piece of the book. In essence my MC had had to carry out a high risk rescue which involved killing the bad guy. So he loosed three arrows into him from cover, in the process knocking him over so that he fell into a fire, and then after that he ran about burning and screaming a bit before finally dying. It brought up bad memories for my MC and issues of remorse, guilt and shame. That seemed understandable to me.

This is an excerpt of the review: "I hate books where the character shows an unreasonable amount of guilt for either protecting themselves or other by killing their attacker. This shows poor writing skills to us such a contrived emotion to drive the story line. People who survive an attack feels relief not guilt."

Ignore the language skills it was the sentiment that troubled me. Here I am writing what I think is reasonable and understandable and some of my readers seem to think it's completely unreasonable to feel guilt when you're forced to do something difficult and terrible.

Which getting back to the OP makes me wonder - are we as authors too PC? Are we so crippled by our fear of giving offence that we contribute to fora like this one only after checking that every word typed could not give offence? Or are we completely missing the boat when it comes to understanding the general populace out there? Sure I would feel bad killing someone in cold blood like that, but would a large chunk of people be comfortable with it?

Note I'm not recommending a change to the moderation here, or to what anyone feels or wants to contribute. I'm just suggesting this as something to consider. Maybe we are overly sensitive to sensitive subjects. Maybe the rest of the world aren't like us at all.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Penpilot]

First off, that review presumed to speak for everyone in the whole world. It doesn't matter if the average person feels guilty or if they don't. All that matters is that the foundation of your character makes that guilt believable.

No matter how well you write something, there will always be people who just don't 'get it'. I mean there are people out there who watch Starship Troopers and don't realize it's satire.

As for being overly sensitive, it's not about the subjects being tackled. It's about the manner in which things are being expressed. Sometimes not enough tact is being applied to responses, and not enough assumption of good faith is given. This is difficult when emotions get heated, which is easy with these hot-button topics.

In addition, it's about the goals of being a family friendly site. Imagine someone walking in here expecting Disneyland and finding Amsterdam's redlight district instead. So erring on the side of caution is the stance being taken.

At least this is what I'm getting from all the responses from the Mods.