Ask me about swords.

[psychotick]

Hi,

Actually I have a family friend who collects all sorts of antique weapons, and as one of his he had a sword cane - Victorian I think. I remember playing with it as a kid, and the one thing I do know is that when you smacked it down on a wooden table it could take a chunk out of the wood. I wouldn't write them off as useless.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[wordwalker]

"Good, fast, cheap - pick any two."

I always liked that logic. Another way of saying it is you can only get as much as you pay for, and you have to pay with either time or cash (for someone else's prepackaged time).

 

[Guy]

Hi,

Actually I have a family friend who collects all sorts of antique weapons, and as one of his he had a sword cane - Victorian I think. I remember playing with it as a kid, and the one thing I do know is that when you smacked it down on a wooden table it could take a chunk out of the wood. I wouldn't write them off as useless.

Cheers, Greg.

Useless? No, but there are better choices.

 

[thedarknessrising]

I found this video to be rather helpful.

 

[Feverfew]

I've been including dragons in my stories, lots of different kinds but having general attributes like being tough to kill due to their tough skin or scales depending on their age.
My question is- assuming even a young dragon has tough saltwater crocodile'ish skin.
What would you look for in a weapon designed to kill dragons? Would the weapon change if the dragon had tough scales instead of just thick leathery skin?
I would assume something strong and able to be used in a hacking motion, more like a greatsword than a katana? I just want to be sure I'm not making my characters cut down the equivalent of an oak tree using the equivalent of a herring.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Jabrosky]

I think a thrusting spear might be more useful than a sword when it comes to fighting a dragon. A spear would give you more distance from the dragon's claws and teeth, for one.

Though now that I think about it, I wonder if a ranged weapon (e.g. bow and arrow) would work even better for that purpose...

 

[wordwalker]

We have a couple of threads about the fine art of dragonslaying:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/wor...ll-defeat-dragon.html?highlight=dragonslaying
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-questions/5569-dragonslaying.html?highlight=dragonslaying

But assuming your hero's limited to generalized tactics:

I'd agree, anything with thick skin is liable to push fighters clean past greatswords and toward spears, or at least axes-- and a heavy bow would be better still, if it was heavy enough.

Edit: If you wanted raw hitting power, I think the heaviest are the pick (basically gambling in hitting the right point squarely-- with a pretty sloppy weapon) and the biggest ball-and-chain you could handle. If the beast was just tough enough that those still worked.

Here's a thought, though: if he wants something shorter (easier to maneuver in wilderness) than a spear, what about an estoc? It's an edge-less sword designed purely for thrusting at the weak points in armor. (Or, any sword with a good thrust is still an option, at least if you can get a shot at a weak spot.)

The way I see it, dragons can be divided between beasts where a human being (without magic weapons) can only swing at its weak spots, and the ones that would get cut to pieces as fast as archers can yell "priority target." The latter would have to stay away from civilization and mostly pick off animals and the occasional farmer or traveler. --Which the majority of a land's dragon legends were, until the tales got hyped up.

 

[Gryphos]

In a novel I have planned, I've got a scene in mind in which the protagonist gets into a sword fight in which he uses a smallsword (a which is also a swordstick) and the enemy uses a more medieval style arming sword. Now, ignoring any other factors like skill or armour, what would likely be the outcome of such a fight?

 

[Feverfew]

This is great thanks for the input!
I'm reading through those threads now and taking notes, but I agree that it seems more of a thrusting weapon with some length would be ideal. A nice hefty bow and arrow would also be a good option- I will probably use all of the above in some manner.

A pick is a very interesting idea! Imagine the bragging rights someone would have if they could drive that thing home!
Thanks again for the help

 

[Guy]

In a novel I have planned, I've got a scene in mind in which the protagonist gets into a sword fight in which he uses a smallsword (a which is also a swordstick) and the enemy uses a more medieval style arming sword. Now, ignoring any other factors like skill or armour, what would likely be the outcome of such a fight?

My money's on the guy with the medieval sword. One historical precedent I can think of is the battle of Killicrankie 1689. British soldiers v Highlanders. Once it came to swordstrokes many British officers drew smallswords while the Highlanders used claymores, both basket hilted and two handed. The Brits lost about 2000 men in the first few minutes. I also know of several instances of men armed with rapiers going up against guys armed with sturdier weapons. In every case, the rapier man lost.

 

[Malik]

In a novel I have planned, I've got a scene in mind in which the protagonist gets into a sword fight in which he uses a smallsword (a which is also a swordstick) and the enemy uses a more medieval style arming sword. Now, ignoring any other factors like skill or armour, what would likely be the outcome of such a fight?

The guy with the smallsword is probably going to lose. If I was him, I'd do anything other than swordfight/fence. I'd throw dirt in the other guy's eyes, pick up a chair, throw a glass at him (if we were in a bar), grapple and try to sweep his legs or break his arm, anything. I would not get near that other sword. Not with a swordcane / smallsword. Nope. Just nope.

There'd be no realistic way to "fence" with that kind of disparity between weapons. You'd be better off not drawing and trying to hit him with something heavy and/or sharp instead. Or just running like hell.

 

[Guy]

Regarding the battle of Killiecrankie I'd mentioned, here's an account I always found interesting. From the memoirs of the Viscount Dundee 1714: British troops facing Highlanders armed with basket hilted and two handed claymores "were cut down through the skull and neck to the breasts, others had skulls cut off above the ears like nightcaps; some had bodies and crossbelts cut through at a blow; pikes and small swords were cut like willows."

Small swords were dueling weapons meant to be matched against each other on the field of honor. They fared exceptionally poorly against heavier weapons on the field of battle or when going up against people who didn't play by rules.

 

[Gryphos]

All right, so what exactly are the reasons the swordstick guy would lose? Would the more slender blade be unable to stop the arming sword? Would reach become an issue? As obviously the blade of the sword would have to be quite short to fit into a cane.

 

[Bortasz]

All right, so what exactly are the reasons the swordstick guy would lose? Would the more slender blade be unable to stop the arming sword? Would reach become an issue? As obviously the blade of the sword would have to be quite short to fit into a cane.

Bigger sword means greater weight, with means greater kinetic energy of the swing. Harder to parry. Also gives you more range.

 

[Malik]

Getting slashed with a smallsword is an inconvenience. Getting hit with an arming sword is like getting hit with a running chainsaw.

NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART: Link downloads a .mov file from The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA).

 

[Guy]

All right, so what exactly are the reasons the swordstick guy would lose? Would the more slender blade be unable to stop the arming sword?

Yes.

Would reach become an issue? As obviously the blade of the sword would have to be quite short to fit into a cane.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The issue is the narrow blade. It's no good for solid blows that pack stopping power. It has no cutting power beyond maybe - maybe - splitting the skin because, in addition to its light weight, it has no edges. The blades were usually triangular in cross section. It won't cleave limbs or bones or sever muscles or tendons. It's a stabbing weapon, but the narrow blade makes a very small wound channel, as opposed to something like the gladius hispaniensis the Romans so adored. It, too, was a stabbing weapon, but with such a broad blade it would be like getting stabbed with a trowel, and it had good cutting power, too. Think of a small sword as the .22 pistol of swords - they have killing power, but they have no stopping power. Some people died instantly from small sword wounds, but in many more cases a wound inflicted by one could take anywhere from minutes to days to kill, leaving the wounded man plenty of time to dispatch his killer. A strong cut from an arming sword can easily break bones and cut muscles and tendons, or even take the limb off completely. Such a wound may also take time to produce death, but it will likely stop the attack right now. Moreover, effective use of a small sword requires very precise, dexterous technique, which is damn near impossible to do when faced with a screaming maniac trying to take your head off.

 

[Gryphos]

Okay, so defeating the arming sword dude with a small sword is out of the question, it seems. But would it be possible to defend against the arming sword strikes? I realise the narrow small sword blade would not have enough mass to stop the arming sword in its tracks, but what about if it was sheathed within the cane? Would the cane split after one hit or would it last long enough for the protagonist to parry and check a few hits?

(Sorry about all the questions, but this is just a rather important thing I need to get sorted.)

 

[wordwalker]

One thing about light weapons vs heavier ones: the more trouble you have parrying, the more you might fall back on jabs or other threatened attacks as a defense. That is, "either fall back from that attack or this move's going to skewer you."

This is a risky defense since you already know he hits harder than you-- assuming he's paying attention at all, and not just wading in. It might save you once or twice, but like Malik said, swing a chair, swing anything except your underpowered weapon if you can, or just run.

Then there's the famous Rob Roy film duel, where a lighter swordsman had a massive advantage in skill... but sooner or later... (And if Rob had had proper armor it would never have been a contest.)

 

[Guy]

Okay, so defeating the arming sword dude with a small sword is out of the question, it seems. But would it be possible to defend against the arming sword strikes? I realise the narrow small sword blade would not have enough mass to stop the arming sword in its tracks, but what about if it was sheathed within the cane? Would the cane split after one hit or would it last long enough for the protagonist to parry and check a few hits?

(Sorry about all the questions, but this is just a rather important thing I need to get sorted.)

Depending on how thick the cane is, yeah, it's possible. It's not something I'd care to try, but it could probably be done. I've seen a technique which showed how a man armed with an arming sword still in its sheath could defend himself from a downward cut. He held the sheathed sword horizontally to stop the cut, pulled the sword out of the sheath and used the sheath to push the enemy blade away while striking with his sword.

 

[Malik]

The other thing about fencing against a big sword with a tiny little blade is that your margin of error is zero. A swordcane doesn't even have a handguard.

The reason this is important is that with something like a swordcane against a two-pound sword, you can't parry with a beat; the bigger sword will cut yours in half. So you have to bind and envelop, and employ prise de fer to control the bigger blade -- what we call "binding and winding" -- the trick here is that you need to catch it when it's not moving and then control it through continuous motion. Once you've got this, if you have the hand & arm strength to send his blade out of line, a quick thrust or even a bind-thrust would, technically, work. But he's coming after you with that big sword an eyelash later, and now you're in range, committed, and weight forward, and he's not dead -- unless you managed to stab him in the mouth or the eye. You, on the other hand . . . yeah. Cancel Christmas.

The other option is to use prise de fer and get a close bind (pinning his weapon with yours).

And hope he doesn't have a secondary weapon handy.

The problem here is that you eventually have to disengage. If he disengages with a coule -- sliding his blade down your no-hilted swordcane -- you're losing a thumb. If he comes down on the inside line, you'll lose the hand. That's what crossguards were pretty much for, and you don't have one. So, yow.

Better to hit him with a chair.