Casting the Bait: What lure should I use and how should I use it?

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, there are lots of things that promise. The voice and style promise a continuation of the voice and style. This can work in the negative sense also. If the first page is poorly written, that's a promise that the rest will be bad too, hah.

When writing, I think I have a tendency to want subtlety in my early chapters, and perhaps this is a fear of being too on-the-nose or hammering a reader over the head. I'd said in another comment in this thread that the hook and promise are like a Rubicon: once X, Y, Z is put in place—elements of the hook/promise—there's no turning back. So...I may have a fear of commitment too.

But this recent turn in this conversation has reminded me of that scene from the movie Gattaca. If you aren't familiar with the movie, it's about a society in which most successful people have been genetically "improved," genetically tweaked in the test tube. The main character, Vincent, is a "love child," meaning that his parents conceived him the old fashioned way, with no genetic tweaking. His younger brother however was genetically "improved." Long story short, Vincent is able to succeed where no one thought him capable, and near the end of the movie the two brothers are swimming across this large body of water—something they did as children, but before, Vincent was always the weaker brother. This time's different, and his brother Anton is mystified:

Anton: Vincent! How are you doing this Vincent? How have you done any of this? We have to go back.

Vincent: It's too late for that. We're closer to the other side.

Anton: What other side? You wanna drown us both?

Vincent: You wanna know how I did it? This is how I did it Anton. I never saved anything for the swim back.

...Heh, it's about commitment, not holding any reserves.

For as long as I've been on this forum you have spoken of your lack of commitment lol.

Yes, I see this a lot... "I don't want to beat the reader over the head." In my experience I find the opposite to be true. A lot of writers have it so clear in their own mind they think they are being pathetically obvious on the page and it is only barely enough for the reader. I've read stuff in crit groups I LOVED and said it was perfect and the writer has come back saying "Oh really? I thought I was being too heavy handed/crazy/too much."

The only time it is too heavy handed is when it is "on the nose" and I think that is different than what we are talking about here.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, even when you state things bluntly, somtimes you need to repeat it, LOL. There's a key line in my WIP that manages to blow by people, and when adding another scene later in the book, I had the character restate this line as a callback to make sure I'm smacking the reader hard enough. People read with distractions, on planes, with children hitting them in the head, hungry dogs staring at them, and sometimes set books down for weeks at a time (guilty of all these, myself) so what's obvious to the writer living the story process is not quite the same for the reader. This makes beta readers and editors crucial.

For as long as I've been on this forum you have spoken of your lack of commitment lol.

Yes, I see this a lot... "I don't want to beat the reader over the head." In my experience I find the opposite to be true. A lot of writers have it so clear in their own mind they think they are being pathetically obvious on the page and it is only barely enough for the reader. I've read stuff in crit groups I LOVED and said it was perfect and the writer has come back saying "Oh really? I thought I was being too heavy handed/crazy/too much."

The only time it is too heavy handed is when it is "on the nose" and I think that is different than what we are talking about here.

 

[FifthView]

@Helio:

Ah, now I'm feeling like Frodo: I know what I must do, it's just that... I'm afraid to do it.

This is not so much about writing in general, but grabbing elements I know to exist in the story I've visualized and yanking them toward the beginning, not worrying about what will be left to write for the rest of the story lol. My recent interest in hooks/lures springs from this need to change the way I approach things. In my WIP, rather than let those important elements of the hook develop as drip-drip-drip over the course of the first act, I need go head-on, begin immediately in Chapter One. Don't save up, don't hold so much in reserve, and hit them out of the park.

Anyway, this new way of thinking is forcing me to reconsider how the story should open.

 

[Heliotrope]

Oh man FV! This was a big problem of mine too! Have you ever heard of Erik Bork? He's a screen writer who wrote Band Of Brothers among other stuff. He has a great website with tons of writing tips, but when I read your post I immediatly thought of this one, which has always stuck in my head because it really helped me (and still does so much!)

We all have ideas for scenes and moments in a story that on their own, seem interesting, and may even be Compelling, Unique, Real and Entertaining - but if they don't connect to and advance the basic problem of the story, they will likely siphon off the emotional connection and investment the reader is feeling. And this is the last thing we want to do! That investment is everything to us - we want people to always be engaged, and always wanting to know "then what?"

To keep that investment, every scene ideally should change the status quo on the central driving question that forms the spine of the story. It can be hard to stick to this, and

often the reason is that we truly have a shortage of "story" - we don't have enough developing conflicts and "status quo changes" to continuously advance the problem all the way to the end. This is very common. We tend to be shocked at just how much "story" we really need, and how quickly pages can eat it up, and demand more. I'm often coaching people to front-load elements of their story so they happen more quickly than they originally envisioned - which results in them needing even more!

But this is not as hard a problem to solve as it might seem. When you don't know what could happen next, the answer (if you have a robust basic concept and structure) always comes from asking what each of the different characters' attitudes, points of view, and desires are. As you check in with them, and think through what they believably would do next, you invariably come up with ideas for more scenes, more conflict, and more "story" to keep it moving forward. This is one of the main things I help writers do.

This was like fireworks to me lol. I hope it might be helpful for you too

 

[Heliotrope]

Dem, there is a sort of microtension in humor isn't there? I had always noticed it, but wondered how it fit as a technique of microtension... now I'm thinking... is it because as the reader we start to sort of wait for the punchline? The punchline is the "answer to the question"... We know the punchline is coming so we keep reading to get the laugh? I just though of this because (Being Canadian) I watched Russell Peter's stand up the other night and I just realized that watching good stand up you are on the edge of your seat the whole time, just like watching an action movie, but instead of an explosion you are waiting for the punchline. You can wait five whole minutes of the comedian telling some mundane story because you know it's going to end in a funny way... Holy crap I've never thought of this before! It all makes sense to me now!

So if I look at James Herriot's funny stories:

Cedric

The voice at the other end of the phone was oddly hesitant.

"Mr. Herriot... I should be grateful if you would come and see my dog." It was a woman, obviously upper class.

"Certainly. What's the trouble?"

"Well... he.... er... he seems to suffer from... a certain amount of flatus."

"I beg your pardon?"

There was a long pause. "He has..... excessive flatus."

"In what way exactly?"

"Well... I supposed you'd describe it as.... windiness." The voice had begun to tremble.

So he sets the "hook" up in such a way that we know the punchline at the end is going to be funny. This poor rich woman who can't even talk about farting is going to be humiliated by her gassy dog. And I read on because I want to see her get humiliated.

Dang.

 

[Incanus]

Do you all ever wonder whether over-emphasis on things like MRUs, microtension, and the like, is more likely to produce stilted, artificial stories?

I know I do. One need only watch about 5 minutes of daytime television to see this in practice. I have little doubt the same can be found on bookshelves. As a slow reader I try to stick to quality books as much as possible, but it can be instructive to read other stuff from time to time as well.

I tend to write organically to begin with, and then start looking to the 'rules' to deal with problem areas.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Do you all ever wonder whether over-emphasis on things like MRUs, microtension, and the like, is more likely to produce stilted, artificial stories? Often, when I see beginning authors adhering too much to a "method" the end product looks a lot like generic fiction novel n. Maybe professional writers use the same approach and it simply isn't noticeable.

All the time.

...and yet I find it interesting.

Something I keep coming back to and that I repeat now and then (in various forms) is that the "rules" for writing is a substitute for understanding (intuitively?) how readers relate to prose and story.

I've not encountered micro-tension until just recently. Now that I know about it, I may consider it when writing for a while, and then it'll get sorted in with all other more or less related knowledge once I get used to it

I'm not sure it's going to have any major impact on my actual writing style though. I believe this is something I already understand intuitively, and that if I want to spend time and effort into tweaking my story I have more to gain on doing it elsewhere.

In other cases, new concepts have a big impact on my writing - like the promise that's been mentioned in this thread a few times. It's not something I've considered in the past, but I've probably heard about it in different ways or under different names.
I feel like getting my head around promise helped me level up as a writer and I'm now eagerly putting the new skill to use when outlining my story.

Will my writing become boring and stilted? In this case, I don't think so, but it could happen.

What I think is really important is how you approach this kind of discussion. Will I approach it as an argument where I see people arguing different ways of best writing a story, or will I approach it as a way to learn something?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

This isn't a lack of writer talent (if speaking of creative daytime tv), it's fulfilling audience expectation. The most talented screenwriters in the world are in tv. I didn't used to believe that when I was chasing H'Wood, but I came to accept it. The bulk of real bad screenwriting has other sources.

Using analysis to repair the organic writing is typically a good way to go. And after you repair, at some point, your organic no longer needs repaired.

Saying that studying MRU, microtension, structure will turn writing generic is a bit like claiming teaching grammar will make writing generic.

I know I do. One need only watch about 5 minutes of daytime television to see this in practice. I have little doubt the same can be found on bookshelves. As a slow reader I try to stick to quality books as much as possible, but it can be instructive to read other stuff from time to time as well.

I tend to write organically to begin with, and then start looking to the 'rules' to deal with problem areas.

 

[Svrtnsse]

@Svrtnsse:

I'm somewhat in the same boat with my current project.

I don't know if you were looking for brainstorming ideas, so I'll not mention the several things that popped into my head, heh.

No worries, I wasn't particularly looking for brainstorming advice. It's not unwelcome of course, but it's a bit off topic. I mainly posted it as a way of making a practical example of what I'm doing and how it relates to the discussion. It helps me think things through in a different way when I have to explain it to someone else, and I enjoy that.

I'm pretty settled on the outline for the first story now and I've moved on to the next one.
I added a section for Promise to my story outline, and in that I formulate the promise as well as list a few things that will be included in the story. I'm not at my laptop at the moment but I'll try and recreate the relevant section from the outline here:

Roy's Escape - Promise
This is a story about a man who's escaping from some bad guys.
There will be a capture, a breaking free, a chase, and a very narrow escape to uncertain momentary safety.

Something like that.
One of the things my protagonist does early on is he throws away his phone as a symbolic (and pretty stupid) gesture of cutting his ties with his present life. It'll show his intention not to let anyone get hold of him, and then he'll leave. I'm thinking that'll herald how people will definitely want to get in touch with him.

 

[FifthView]

I think "organic" is a squishy word.

No babe is born with a facility for language and communication. And yet, a baby is an organic being, and learning is an organic process. If something is artificial–i.e., human-made–it is still a result of organic processes.

I do think we can each of us reach a point of understanding communication, including the rules of communication, where we can use communication without having to think about it much. Yes, I still have to pause and think, "i before e except..." sometimes, but much of the time I can breeze through writing.

But I don't think that writing extended narrative prose is quite as ingrained by the age of _____ as being able to tell simple stories. Children tell stories. My family and coworkers tell stories. This doesn't mean I think they can write novels. Heck, I'm still working on learning how to do this well myself.

 

[Aurora]

This isn't a lack of writer talent (if speaking of creative daytime tv), it's fulfilling audience expectation. The most talented screenwriters in the world are in tv. I didn't used to believe that when I was chasing H'Wood, but I came to accept it. The bulk of real bad screenwriting has other sources.

Using analysis to repair the organic writing is typically a good way to go. And after you repair, at some point, your organic no longer needs repaired.

Saying that studying MRU, microtension, structure will turn writing generic is a bit like claiming teaching grammar will make writing generic.

See, I agree with your viewpoints. It's crucial to understand story structure if the desire/goal is to be a professional writer. This can, of course, be accomplished in various ways (deepening understanding of story structure). What I have found helpful in the past is to read craft books, do the exercises, pick out those points in fiction that I'm reading and see how other authors do it, and keep learning. I've never heard of MRU or microtension as technical terms before this conversation (of which I was so rudely sent packing but that's another matter).

I wasn't trying to ruin anyone's day or argue about what's best or not, only wanted to be part of the conversation. Do I think of tension and rising conflict when I write? Absolutely! I read a lot of my competition's books and learn from those authors. I have relationships with those same authors to continue learning and reaching my audience, to expand my understanding of business and craft. Aiming to understand all one can about craft can only be a boon in the long and short runs.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Status quo changes are done well in the Story Grid, not called that per se. The Story Grid is an excellent analytical tool. Basically saying that every scene/chapter should have a change in the story arc... internal or external. I did it just for fun, and found many of my chapters change two arcs, hitting on both internal and external elements.

Also picked up from screenwriting, it's similar to what Bork was saying, but in a different way. People often write subplots without a full structure (and it isn't necessary to have a full structure, mind you). This can also go for thematic elements. Yes, you want "organic" elements to come out, but it's amazing how often those are the same as when you fill the gaps in subplot and thematic structures.

When writing Sundering the Gods I wasn't worrying at all about structure, and then I reverse engineered what I did to see a gigantic version of what I did in screenwriting. Now, I'm playing around with a slightly customized concept of the Story Grid to see if it'll assist in keeping a half million word epic "tight". heh heh.

Oh man FV! This was a big problem of mine too! Have you ever heard of Erik Bork? He's a screen writer who wrote Band Of Brothers among other stuff. He has a great website with tons of writing tips, but when I read your post I immediatly thought of this one, which has always stuck in my head because it really helped me (and still does so much!)

We all have ideas for scenes and moments in a story that on their own, seem interesting, and may even be Compelling, Unique, Real and Entertaining - but if they don't connect to and advance the basic problem of the story, they will likely siphon off the emotional connection and investment the reader is feeling. And this is the last thing we want to do! That investment is everything to us - we want people to always be engaged, and always wanting to know "then what?"

To keep that investment, every scene ideally should change the status quo on the central driving question that forms the spine of the story. It can be hard to stick to this, and

often the reason is that we truly have a shortage of "story" - we don't have enough developing conflicts and "status quo changes" to continuously advance the problem all the way to the end. This is very common. We tend to be shocked at just how much "story" we really need, and how quickly pages can eat it up, and demand more. I'm often coaching people to front-load elements of their story so they happen more quickly than they originally envisioned - which results in them needing even more!

But this is not as hard a problem to solve as it might seem. When you don't know what could happen next, the answer (if you have a robust basic concept and structure) always comes from asking what each of the different characters' attitudes, points of view, and desires are. As you check in with them, and think through what they believably would do next, you invariably come up with ideas for more scenes, more conflict, and more "story" to keep it moving forward. This is one of the main things I help writers do.

This was like fireworks to me lol. I hope it might be helpful for you too

 

[Incanus]

Saying that studying MRU, microtension, structure will turn writing generic is a bit like claiming teaching grammar will make writing generic.

Totally agree. But did anyone actually say this? For the most part I steer clear of absolutes, especially when talking about something as open-ended as writing, or other art forms.

 

[FifthView]

@ Svrtnsse:

This is the part of your previous comment that, er, hooked me heh:

The hook is relatively easy: Will Roy lose the match as he's been requested to, or will he win it? (kinda like in Pulp Fiction).
I'm confident I can set up the hook and establish that as the premise of the story within the first few paragraphs.

The promise is trickier: This story is about a man who drops everything to travel across the world to be with the woman he loves.

How to set that up?
I need to establish that Roy's still hung up on Toini (the woman) in a big way, even though he's thought her dead for nearly a decade (yes, he's got issues).

The questions that instantly entered my mind, re: the practical application, is How soon will he realize/suspect that his wife's still alive? and How will he learn this or begin to suspect this?

Those things seem essential, and I thought they probably should happen very soon in your tale. And my mind began going over possible scenarios. My mind also began to consider scenarios/situations which would place him in a position of not just running off instantly–more than simply that he's a noble man, the sort to keep a promise to fight. But I don't know everything about your story, so who knows?

For me, the idea of yanking some things forward in my own story, building the hook and promise early, has made me reconsider how my story develops in the beginning. I've not settled on any changes in my approach yet, but the curious thing is that I think the general events I'd already planned for the first few chapters are still fine. How I go about writing them might change. For instance, I'd originally planned to hold off on introducing the primary antagonistic force and another main character (MC's love interest) but now I'm thinking of folding all these elements into the first and second chapter. Same general things happen in the MC's life, but some of the players have changed.

Anyway, interesting stuff....

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I'm not a huge MRU person, but like most things, it'll be useful to some people. It's foundation is solid, but... eh.

Microtension is a useful concept. More so for some people than others.

Like the modern three act structure, it's all useful, but to one degree or another, all writers use them, whether we know it or not. But in the end, it never hurts to know more theory. The more you know, the more your subconscious uses it, and the less editing you need, LOL. At least that's my theory.

See, I agree with your viewpoints. It's crucial to understand story structure if the desire/goal is to be a professional writer. This can, of course, be accomplished in various ways (deepening understanding of story structure). What I have found helpful in the past is to read craft books, do the exercises, pick out those points in fiction that I'm reading and see how other authors do it, and keep learning. I've never heard of MRU or microtension as technical terms before this conversation (of which I was so rudely sent packing but that's another matter).

I wasn't trying to ruin anyone's day or argue about what's best or not, only wanted to be part of the conversation. Do I think of tension and rising conflict when I write? Absolutely! I read a lot of my competition's books and learn from those authors. I have relationships with those same authors to continue learning and reaching my audience, to expand my understanding of business and craft. Aiming to understand all one can about craft can only be a boon in the long and short runs.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Steerpike wondered about it, LOL.

Totally agree. But did anyone actually say this? For the most part I steer clear of absolutes, especially when talking about something as open-ended as writing, or other art forms.

 

[Svrtnsse]

The questions that instantly entered my mind, re: the practical application, is How soon will he realize/suspect that his wife's still alive? and How will he learn this or begin to suspect this?

Those things seem essential, and I thought they probably should happen very soon in your tale. And my mind began going over possible scenarios. My mind also began to consider scenarios/situations which would place him in a position of not just running off instantly—more than simply that he's a noble man, the sort to keep a promise to fight. But I don't know everything about your story, so who knows?

You're right. The news that Toini is alive is what sets the entire rest of the series into motion (inciting incident). The series is planned to be nineteen parts (all pretty short) where the first part is the fight mentioned previously. What happens is that just as that story is about to end Roy gets a message on his phone saying Toini's back and that she wants to see him. The story then ends with that as a cliffhanger.

From the story that's just been told we learn that Roy is in a position he's not happy with and that he'd quite like to get out of it. We also know that there's next to nothing keeping him there. Suddenly, like a whale from the sky, his long-lost teenage love is found to be alive on the other side of the world.

In other words:
Roy...
...doesn't like where he is.
...has no reason to stay.
...has nothing to lose.
...learns that the love of his life is still alive.

I'm thinking that the logic here is sound, but the practical details are up in the air.

 

[Heliotrope]

If brainstorming is what we are doing I would consider giving him lots to lose, instead of nothing to lose. Just for the sake of brainstorming and because we are discussing hooks and lures. High stakes are always good. What if he was supposed to win a fight, he was destined to be huge, make a ton of money etc. Of course he is unhappy and has a nagging feeling he doesn't even care about winning, but he has nothing else in his life right now, and everyone is relying on him to fill their bank accounts and he has a cute little bird with a nice butt who comes around now and again. Maybe he owes some guys some money, or has an illegal fighting ring going on on the side and some guys are after him who think he cheated them out of a fair fight.

He is just about to go into a big fight when he hears... Toini is alive!

Well shit. Now what is he going to do? Walk away from from everyone who depends on him in order to find her? Burning all his bridges when he leaves? Or forget Toini and follow the sure thing he already has?

Those sorts of high stakes conflicts make good hooks.

 

[Svrtnsse]

[...]
He is just about to go into a big fight when he hears... Toini is alive!

Well shit. Now what is he going to do? Walk away from from everyone who depends on him in order to find her? Burning all his bridges when he leaves? Or forget Toini and follow the sure thing he already has?

Those sorts of high stakes conflicts make good hooks.

This is part of the plan.

Or, well, not exactly like that, but close enough.

I want to use this first story to set up the character and the promise for the entire series of stories, but I also want to make the story interesting in its own right. To do that, I'll be using hooks (plot devices) like the ones you mention. There will be people depending on Roy to do the right thing, and there will be dire consequences for him and others if he doesn't.

The way I'm thinking is that I have to keep the reader interested enough to read the entire short story, or they won't even notice the promise of the longer and deeper story that follows on to it.

That probably wasn't very clear from my previous post, as that was mainly focused on setting up the promise for the entire series.

 

[Heliotrope]

Sounds great!