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Half pregnant

Discussion in 'Ask the Staff' started by gavintonks, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    I have noticed that all the other crit review sites I have participated in or participate in insist that you participate in crits before you are allowed to post work for criticism.

    This site has become extremely valuable in terms of the information contained here in cyber space and the level of commitment of members to responses is awesome, but seldom reciprocated.
    The same faces comment on many of the works, while the thousands get pregnant without the effort. This does not seem fair, as it is a one sided affair. Of all the stories posted in the please help, comment read section, how many of those manuscript writers have reciprocated and read someone else's work?

    I think we should have a 5 crit limit before you can post work for review. Let the knives begin
     
  2. Aosto

    Aosto Sage

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    I think many come here for help. And some are more qualified than others when it comes to offering that help. People who post for review/editorial assistance do so because they are seeking those qualified persons for assistance.
    I could give a critique, but it would be less valuable then others. I have been writing for a few months where as some have been for years.
    I feel that as long as the member is active in the forums, and lends insight when they can, then that is acceptable.
     
    gavintonks likes this.
  3. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    To read is human so anyone can read and offer an opinion it is what is asked for. Many people do not like the unfolded criticism and suggestions.
    The point is every person reads, so reading is first prize, 2nd reading through another state of mind helps to know what you should not be doing as if you read it, so it is as educational as a crit
    This is not a test from a phd professor this is opinion in an open forum, and that costs nothing to give as it is an emotional response.

    Just because a person lurks or does the blog thing on the forums means that they get hours of value without investing back. Whether you think you are competent or not,just courtesy should make you reciprocate, it is after all what people are asking for, why should one person be entitled to a response and solid input Like Foster who seriously puts effort into his review and Lorna and others gets a simple response by reading his work in turn and just saying / yes I would buy or no I would not, or it is not my genre
     
  4. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    I feel that there should be value attached and not expectation of value and that value is in giving back what you are given. Even if we reduce it to a monetary value and say an average person has spent an hour and that is US$10 you have for free with good intentions, how can you not reciprocate with the same good intention, but simply reading manuscript excerpt post and leaving am honest comment?

    I think it is the right thing to do
     
  5. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    every point of view in this highly competitive environment adds value and your value should not be so easily dismissed because you are not commenting from an editing perspective. Readers are not editors they are people who like to read, they want the story the best way they can get it, and that is why every person here should take a little time out and read when someone asks
     
  6. Aosto

    Aosto Sage

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    I'm not arguing that someone shouldn't offer a critique in return. A lot of the requests made are generally for line-by-line edits or grammar correction. I'm more then happy to offer up my honest review of a piece, but am in no way qualified to offer the above mentioned.
    Other then those points. I agree with you. If you are able to offer an honest review then do so. However this forum is much more then posting to the showcase and looking for a crit. I feel that if someone is an active member and offers input on other topics presented, then that person should be allowed to offer up a piece for crit.
    This is not to say that we HAVE to critique it. However i'm sure others such as Foster who are common faces in the showcase enjoy doing what they do.
     
    gavintonks and CupofJoe like this.
  7. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    My point is only related to posting a crit, if you wish to be critted then crit in return, or crit then you can post to be critted
     
  8. CupofJoe

    CupofJoe Myth Weaver

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    I think all your suggestion will result in is lots of "I liked it" or "It sucked" posts as people try to maintain their criteria for membership. Yes in a perfect world everyone would offer up a fair, just and reasoned critique of every piece they read but making people do it could ruin the nature of this forum.
    Personally I don't think I have much in the way of writing chops to critique other people work and I don't do it very often. And why would someone who doesn't know me want my opinion on how they should write?
    I have learnt a lot about writing in the last few weeks at the forum and if I feel I have relevant knowledge or experience then I will share it in an appropriate post. I hope that is how I contribute without having to critique others.
    As for Lurkers... in the first place it takes a lot of courage to join a group like this and then you see there are published writers here with several books under their belt as well as others with hundreds of posts and thousands of reputation points - it can seem somewhat intimidating to proverbially stick your hand up and have everyone stare at you...
     
    Ireth, Rikilamaro and gavintonks like this.
  9. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    Hhahahah CupofJoe life is so short people loose a life in waiting and it is liberating to have an opinion, it builds character
     
  10. Amanita

    Amanita Maester

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    I don't really see any need for this.
    We're all doing this in our free time and if something on the Showcase catches my interest, I read it and write a comment. I don't think that the Showcase is suffering from a lack of comments and if some people like to comment and feel confident enough to do so, while others do not, where's the problem? Reading stories here and writing something about them isn't working time we expect payment for is it?
    I can't think of many people who are flooding the Showcase with texts but never review anything themselves at the moment.
     
    gavintonks likes this.
  11. Rikilamaro

    Rikilamaro Inkling

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    Here's my two cents:

    If you see someone constantly posting for critique and that someone never reads anyone else's work - for the love of all that's holy - don't read their work or critique it. They'll eventually get the hint that they have to give back to the community or we'll ignore them.
     
    JadedSidhe and gavintonks like this.
  12. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    I feel that one of the reasons our showcase is special is because we don't have limits.

    I've done quite a few critiques but I've never posted. Instead, I'm working with a small group of people from our forums in private critique. Why? Mainly because our showcase is often directed more towards beginning writers needing help & I think that's awesome. Now that's not always the case. Occasionally you'll see a more seasoned writer throw their literary hat in the ring & that's fine too.

    My point is that people that may need more guidance, direction, or support feel free to post there work here without the need to comment on another's work. Although I understand your point Gavin, if I was just a beginner I may very well shy away from offering my opinion because I didn't feel qualified.

    If you're looking for more critiques of your work I'd suggest finding a few MS members as partners and performing crits on each others works. That's the fairest way to handle it. In groups formed for this purpose you have an obligation to one another. Here, the freedom to ask for assistance while learning the basics is an important aspect that differentiates MS.

    I think that should be held onto with a white knuckled grasp.

    As a final thought... If you are a member that reads showcase entries but has yet to offer critique you should understand that critiquing the work of others will help you grow as a writer in leaps & bounds. No need to be afraid for any reason.
     
    gavintonks likes this.
  13. writeshiek33

    writeshiek33 Sage

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    i always try to leave feedback to those i have read it is only fair
     
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  14. Chilari

    Chilari Staff Moderator

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    I don't think a crit limit is necessary or even useful. Sites that have one are frequently (though not always) primarily crit sites. People go there for one reason, and leave when that is fulfilled. Here we have a variety of discussions going on, covering writing, worldbuilding, publishing and more. I don't think you should be obliged to contribute to one specific section to gain benefit from it. Some people don't enjoy critiquing other's work, or don't know what to say about it, or feel awkward about it, or simply aren't experienced enough as writers. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to ask for feedback, and it doesn't mean they can't contribute in other areas, like research or marketing. I see this as more of a fluid, communal space than a rigid one.

    Edit: also, while some of us don't go in the Showcase much, that doesn't mean we're not critiquing the work of other members. For my part I feel overwhelmed by the Showcase. My time is limited, and there are always so many stories, not all of them of subgenres I enjoy. How do I chose which to read and which to leave? Plus I'm always paranoid I'll come off as pretentious and patronising. So I prefer to work on a more intimate level when reviewing someone else's work - through PMs with someone I have had some prior conversation with.

    Having said that, if there is someone abusing the goodwill of MS members by posting a lot of their writing but not giving back to the community in some way (eg if they know a lot about horses or the Aztec civilisation or whatever, by posting in the research forum, or by getting involved in discussions about grammar, or even just by posting links to interesting articles or amusing videos) then maybe a relevant moderator should be notified and they can check out the situation and send a politely worded PM to the accused.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
    gavintonks likes this.
  15. Zero Angel

    Zero Angel Auror

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    This is an interesting idea. I would crit more but I tend to come off more harsh than not maybe. I mean, I wrote a 5-star review of Way of Kings and ended up mainly discussing what I DIDN'T like about the book -_-

    I actually like reviewing books, but I can't imagine that I would enjoy critiquing first or second drafts of people I do not have a relationship with. If someone I talk to on here is looking for a critique, please let me know. I'm always glad to help out (although I do work 3 jobs so patience please :eek: )
     
    gavintonks likes this.
  16. Caged Maiden

    Caged Maiden Staff Article Team

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    I think good will is the bar here. For the people who never give back, they will ultimately understand. To the people who post good critiques and spend hours of their time, keep going, because even if the OP doesn't appreciate your words, I do, and I learn from doing critiques as well as reading the ones you write.
     
    gavintonks and Taro like this.
  17. Jess A

    Jess A Archmage

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    Reading some of the above comments, something struck me - maybe some people don't feel comfortable posting a critique because they feel others here will ridicule them for lacking 'expertise'. This is a sad thing if true. Nobody should be forced to critique something (perhaps being forced will result in less quality, as someone mentioned above). But people should feel they are able to speak without receiving a sarcastic or condescending response. This does not relate to me - I could not care less what people think of my inexperience. I wouldn't be here if I knew everything (or much of anything on certain topics, for that matter). But I do wonder if it's the case with some others. This forum is better than many I've seen when it comes to fair and balanced debate, but not invulnerable.
     
    gavintonks likes this.
  18. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    My point is about doing the right thing it has nothing to do with how things are running but a situation based on a current attitude I see around me in my country and then thought but hang on is this not the same here
    1 - expectation of getting without giving
    2 -my analogy of worth in monetary term is just that making people consider the value they are getting from the time, so just give a little back, it is not an unreasonable request
    3 - I am not sure how you think my comment highlights any dysfunctionality within the site or how it is used, or flooded comments this is about a simple premise, you have been helped help in return

    It is the same as the thanks button, here you have taken the trouble to respond and that's great and deserves a thank
     
  19. gavintonks

    gavintonks Maester

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    hahahhahah ignoring people is a negative response, is it not better that they have a conscious prick before hand
     
  20. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    People are responding to your comments with a focus on site functionality because, in your original post, you stated:

    "I think we should have a 5 crit limit before you can post work for review."
     

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