Half pregnant

[gavintonks]

what you highlight regarding critiquing being so good for you, then a little bit of medicine would not be bad. I have no personal issues other than it concerns me that people get value and it should be reciprocated that input is considered some one else's responsibility because of some obscure emotion called "I fear" that is not a strong enough reason to avoid providing a critique

 

[gavintonks]

This has got nothing to do with any one abusing the system or the board, it is about a trend I noticed that has resonated with the current political turmoil we have in our country. It has made me consider the objectivity of people to benefit without reciprocation, as a human thing and not necessarily a good thing.

Your point about the type of story is interesting maybe people should post a story guideline to appeal to a reader by genre

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

what you highlight regarding critiquing being so good for you, then a little bit of medicine would not be bad. I have no personal issues other than it concerns me that people get value and it should be reciprocated that input is considered some one else's responsibility because of some obscure emotion called "I fear" that is not a strong enough reason to avoid providing a critique

It's not a good reason for you or I perhaps but it's difficult to assume the same sentiment for others. I believe in reciprocation as well but I'm certainly not going to be fussed if people choose not to critique something I post publicly. If you desire true reciprocation & commitment, you should form an writing group.

 

[gavintonks]

Harsh is so peculiar as well, as honesty is not harsh it is truth, you can only grow from truth as I doubt anyone is malicious in their intent when providing a crit. Your offer is extremely overgenerous

 

[gavintonks]

The web has provided an explosive force for people to have an opinion, which requires tempering but also understanding, You are the only one who can take offense, so I think people are maturing and realizing it is debate not slander. I was running a political page on facebook and the political rhetoric and slander was horrific, I eventually left but it has spawned some new places where politic is now dialogue and their is respect for beliefs. This is the root of the same humanity that I sense is lacking. maybe a biblical phrase - do unto others as you would like to have done to you is appropriate

 

[gavintonks]

People are responding to your comments with a focus on site functionality because, in your original post, you stated:

"I think we should have a 5 crit limit before you can post work for review."

Well that is what I am thinking, otherwise I would say, there is a large amount of abuse and to control the abuse this is what is required. My point of debate is purely from the standpoint of sometimes it is good for people to have to get wet, and if their is so much stress about something that is really natural. We have opinions about published books, moves and even being on this site, I think it is much harder to put work up for open criticism than it is to provide a critique.

 

[Chilari]

Control isn't always desirable. People are free to stay or leave as they like. If there are limits in what they can do here, they might decide to go somewhere else. If they come for help with their first chapter and find the place friendsly and welcoming, they may well stick around and subsequently provide critique, take part in discussions and help someone researching the types of fabric commonly used in the early medieval period in France. Telling someone they can't get help until they've given some is not welcoming and they might decide to find somewhere else to go instead. And that's just not how this forum goes. The members that stick around give a little and take a little, and not all the value created here is in the Showcase.

Now, if there is abuse - and I'm not sure that there is; no mods have brought it up in the super secret moderator forum in any case - but if there is, then we can deal with the individual abusing the system we have. But we don't need to limit the actions of all current and potential members on the off chance that someone comes along and abuses the system. If it isn't a problem when there are no sanctions in place, and the potential harm caused by it if it becomes a problem is minimal (nobody is going to get hurt by one member posting a lot in the Showcase, are they?), no action needs to be taken to prevent it from becoming a problem if said action will cause disruption. It's like putting traffic lights up at a crossroads where two tiny country roads cross - it causes more trouble than it's worth. You're gonna get about ten cars and probably as many tractors a day using those roads. You don't need traffic lights when some white lines will do. And at the moment, with a requirement for members to post five times before they can use the Showcase, we've got all the white lines we need.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I don't think there's any need to enforce a crit quota system of some kind here. It's a casual environment and it wouldn't be worth the effort here.

If someone is constantly asking for crits and never providing any, they will get a bad reputation and people will stop providing crits for them. It's a small enough community that the free-rider problem is negligible.

I understand your concern about the national political environment, but that's not really relevant to whether we're going to furnish a crit quota system. There's no plans (or, from our perspective, need) to do so.*

*Usual disclaimers apply.

 

[Zero Angel]

Now, if there is abuse - and I'm not sure that there is; no mods have brought it up in the super secret moderator forum in any case

IT DOES EXIST!

 

[Steerpike]

IT DOES EXIST!

And now we have to 'take care of' another member. I hope this isn't going to be like the cleansing of 2011. I never got the blood out of my shirt. Where do you live again, Zero Angel?

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I'm not sure whether it matters so much whether there is a crit limit or not before review. I'm on other sites where there is and have no problem with it, but enforcement of such a thing will always put some people's backs up.

Personally I think the thing that has to be emphasised is that giving criticism is often one way a writer can improve his or her own work. It has helped in me as I see in other people's work the same problems that have existed in my own but which I couldn't see until then.

Maybe instead of a limit there could be a counter beside each person's avatar advising that they have contributed so many critics, which might serve as an incentive.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I like the system here. Some days I feel like doing a crit to help someone out, sometimes I don't have a lot of time.

I'm more inclined to respond to someone I've seen around quite a while, especially if I've seen them helping others, and I hope people would do the same for me.

There are also people I avoid critiquing for, especially people I'm not very familiar with, or people who post in a really desperate way. I've been burned by leaving feedback before, and I have to admit, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So this really is about establishing a community, where we get to know each other and learn some trust, versus simply scratching my back because I scratched yours.

I think most of the people on this site are here to help, with the very best intentions. Are we all the best advice-givers? No, but our hearts are in the right places, and it's up to every individual writer to take a critique seriously or roll their eyes and say, "thanks for your time."

I've done many more critiques than I've received on this site, but I found a couple awesome critique partners here, so I pay the community back for that. Also, we've had some really good research debates in the last year, and I've sent people loads of material by email to help them (and received some very one-on-one type help from experts in fields other than the ones I've studied). All this goes toward community-building, and it is no less important than the critiques on the Showcase.

Thanks to everyone who makes this a community bent on mutual support and encouragement.

 

[Flemming Hansen]

In my opinion, there are more ways to help then doing crits. Some help posting replies on specific questions on the forum, and others help by crits. I think things are fine the way they are.

 

[gavintonks]

Control isn't always desirable. People are free to stay or leave as they like. If there are limits in what they can do here, they might decide to go somewhere else. If they come for help with their first chapter and find the place friendsly and welcoming, they may well stick around and subsequently provide critique, take part in discussions and help someone researching the types of fabric commonly used in the early medieval period in France. Telling someone they can't get help until they've given some is not welcoming and they might decide to find somewhere else to go instead. And that's just not how this forum goes. The members that stick around give a little and take a little, and not all the value created here is in the Showcase.

Now, if there is abuse - and I'm not sure that there is; no mods have brought it up in the super secret moderator forum in any case - but if there is, then we can deal with the individual abusing the system we have. But we don't need to limit the actions of all current and potential members on the off chance that someone comes along and abuses the system. If it isn't a problem when there are no sanctions in place, and the potential harm caused by it if it becomes a problem is minimal (nobody is going to get hurt by one member posting a lot in the Showcase, are they?), no action needs to be taken to prevent it from becoming a problem if said action will cause disruption. It's like putting traffic lights up at a crossroads where two tiny country roads cross - it causes more trouble than it's worth. You're gonna get about ten cars and probably as many tractors a day using those roads. You don't need traffic lights when some white lines will do. And at the moment, with a requirement for members to post five times before they can use the Showcase, we've got all the white lines we need.

I am not sure why the case of abuse is brought up when I am merely discussing is it a good idea for people to have to crit before their work is critter-ed, I have not seen any abuse of the forum or this page, It is purely an observation on my part to say - is it a good idea for people to participate by reciprocation when they are getting such good value here?

 

[gavintonks]

I don't think there's any need to enforce a crit quota system of some kind here. It's a casual environment and it wouldn't be worth the effort here.

If someone is constantly asking for crits and never providing any, they will get a bad reputation and people will stop providing crits for them. It's a small enough community that the free-rider problem is negligible.

I understand your concern about the national political environment, but that's not really relevant to whether we're going to furnish a crit quota system. There's no plans (or, from our perspective, need) to do so.*

*Usual disclaimers apply.

I am trying to unravel a fundamental human principle and see if this 'flaw' for want of a better word that I am seeing in human nature is resonating in other spheres of life, and when I was reading some of the posts I realized that their is a similarity here in this particular area of the board, where people post their work. It would be extremely presumptuous of me to presume to change the rules or interfere in the workings of the board - period. How ever I thought it appropriate to garner feedback by the post. By entitling it half pregnant in itself should be a key, as there is no such thing as half pregnant, so the objective is to understand why some people do not feel that they should reciprocate when they have received a valuable asset?

 

[gavintonks]

hahahah the luminati have you now - oh woe one less critter

 

[gavintonks]

In my opinion, there are more ways to help then doing crits. Some help posting replies on specific questions on the forum, and others help by crits. I think things are fine the way they are.

I am only focused on this area as it reveals a fundamental issue I see in human nature, self analysis is an important tool to growth. As caged Maiden has said there are people who have left a very bad taste in members mouths, I know the moderators banned one person, for this reason. It does take years to build trust and loyalty and of course there are a very diverse group of personalities and the personal nature that one views your work.

At the end of the day it is personal choices,it just saddens me that people are becoming more selfish and the spirit of sharing is being lost, as people are becoming more used to having things for free from the web.I think this has brought home another fundamental issue maybe even guilt, as one is aware of the costs that the host pays to have this site here, for us to enjoy as a free platform. I think we get so lost in our own worlds we have forgotten the sacrifices others have made to make places like this possible.

I am working on a concept of giving people free education through sponsorship and data base access and this concept within human nature of liking things for free, but will they give back? The dilemma in the publishing world is no different in terms of what people are prepared to pay for entertainment. The spend on alcohol they will not think twice to pay the price of a book for a bottle of whiskey, will pay to see a bad movie but when it comes to sharing on the web, it is a free for all.

So we are developing a culture of 'will you give back?' probably not

 

[Chilari]

I don't think forcing people to help before they can recieve it will promote a sense of share and share alike. Enforcing such a system won't change people for the better. I think in general, it is the new writers who ask for help and the more experienced writers who offer it. Partly that's because new readers need more help and experienced writers have more to offer, but partly, I think, it's because new writers have yet to learn the social etiquette involved in providing and receiving critiques online. Now, perhaps enforcing a system where they must provide critiques before they can receive any may get them into the mindset that this is how it works, or perhaps it will be seen as a barrier to new writers who wouldn't know the first thing about critiquing another's work and may as a result either not share their own work, which means they don't improve and the Showcase becomes stagnant, or else provide short, unhelpful critiques in a rush so they can get help, which results in a lowering of the standards of critiquing and thus lessens the value of the Showcase.

Meanwhile by keeping the current system, new writers asking for help receive quality feedback, rather than rushed feedback from people no more experienced than themselves who just want to get help. Thus they are exposed to good quality feedback at a higher ratio. Thus they learn what good feedback is, and are then better equipped to give some. Once the eagerness to share their work fades after posting it, they may decide to stick around and read other people's work and the feedback they've recieved, and maybe then give some feedback in a more patient, considered manner than they would if forced to provide it before they can submit their own work for feedback.

 

[gavintonks]

Paradox of modern living = well I for one hope they see the value of reading and criting, as much as it is perceived as a negative it is the only way to grow, as how else do you know if your work passes muster?

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

so the objective is to understand why some people do not feel that they should reciprocate when they have received a valuable asset?

Er... because it's human nature (and the nature of almost all lifeforms) to try to gain resources without having to expend any of their own energy? Organisms that didn't evolve that instinct didn't do very well.

Certainly we should try to encourage reciprocation, but again, there's no need here for a formal system.