Help, I just used the word "strumpet"

[Caged Maiden]

Okay so this thread is about words. The ones we actually use, the ones we mean to use, the ones we want to use, and the ones that eventually make it into our stories.

So my dilemma began when I wrote a line into my story about a prostitute who made some silly comments about mathematics. Now, as my MC is listening to this woman make a mess of math to the men listening, she's amused by the fact that this woman has a calculating mind and keen intellect, yet she so artfully crafted her airhead personality, so as not to display her intelligence. She plays dumb, but in a silly and cute way, to appear non-threatening, because some of her business is information. People talk in front of her because they think she's stupid. Now, I don't buy into the "dumb broad" stereotype, and I know it's outdated, as that Progressive Car Insurance video about the 50s, but the stereotype plays a role in my story, so I'm embracing it in a small way, in this one section, pertaining to this one character. I just needed to get that out of the way for context reasons, so you all know where I'm coming from. Here's the paragraph:

“Oh poo, and this whole time, I thought we were doing well,” Rhynda said, adding a bit of dejection in her tone for emphasis. Of all the professional women Raisa knew, Rhynda alone had mastered the mien of the giddy, empty-headed strumpet. Whenever she spoke, the words were so artfully crafted, one might miss the cunning intellect that intentionally appeared so shallow. It was a fine line between comedy and tragedy, a show Raisa enjoyed to watch, though she watched it alone. Everyone else pitied poor, stupid Rhynda, who was good for nothing but selling her affection. The joke was on them, time and again.

What I'm struggling with is language. I don't want to use words that sound too scientific, like "prostitute", and I don't want the MC to use "whore" in her head, because she doesn't feel negatively about this woman and her chosen occupation, in fact, she admires the way she's created a personality that is contrary to her real inner strength (much like my MC is a crime boss' mistress, but she isn't really, she's his spy).

Anyways, going back to words, I find the Thesaurus.com site very helpful because it includes various uses for words and gives details about how and when words were used, and even discusses word origins. But for some words, I struggle with including modern concepts in a historical-feeling world, and just wondered how you guys deal with this sort of issue.

Some words that are in common use today simply didn't exist a few hundred years ago, which is the approximate time period of most of my stories, and while i enjoy including certain modern concepts and language, I try to always be conscious of when words originated in their current form and usage.

So, in the card game they're playing (basically no-limit Texas Hold'em) they use modern language, which was from about the American West to the middle of the 20th century. Not exactly historical, but I felt like if I reinvented the wheel (as in all the poker language) it would just be taxing on readers' brains. Why not just use the words we commonly use now, like "flop", "blind", "river", "check-raise", etc.?

But then I wonder whether it's okay to leave the game as an isolated event, where modern language is used in that one context, but to use older words more fitting of the time period of the story? And so enters the word "strumpet", a 14th century word that means a loose woman, and to "strum" is to carnally know a woman, or to play a stringed instrument. AAK! I mean...where must the line be drawn to include a nod toward historical words, but not be limited to only them? I certainly don't want to make up words left and right, but it feels unnatural to include too many 20th century words in what is more similar to a Renaissance world.

I'm really straddling a difficult line, here, because on the one hand, I enjoy historical words and their meanings, but on the other hand, I want my stories to be readable and make sense to folks who aren't the history buff I am. I've already abandoned certain historical concepts, as i'm writing fantasy, is it even something worth worrying about if I use more modern words and expect a reader to understand the story is meant to be relayed to them in a more modern way? None of my characters speak in an archaic manner or anything, but I like to use words in common use before 1750, just for the sake of consistency, but certain things in our real world (like poker) didn't exist then, and so I've had to make exceptions. But then I look at words like "strumpet" against words like floozy (an early 20th century term) and I wonder whether i'm not overcomplicating things by sticking to outdated word choices? Like does the word I chose then affect the tone of my story?

I should clarify that I'm not actually looking for a better word (as I'm pretty familiar with all words for a "lady of the evening"), but i'm looking for general thoughts on how word choice can be jarring, and general feedback on how you guys deal with this sort of issue, when you write historical-feeling fantasy for a modern audience. Which is more important, sticking to the right time period and the words that were in use during the general period of the story, or creating the right "feel" for a modern reader, who is more concerned about understanding the concepts you're trying to get across, despite perhaps a bit of anachronism in the words themselves?

 

[glutton]

For me, 110% the right feel for the reader. 'Darn it Rose, why did you have to steal that kill?' Granted mine are not set on Earth so there is some more leeway, but still.

 

[arbiter117]

If you can preserve the older feel of the language overall (the gambling is one small portion of the book) then I wouldn't mind (if I were a reader if your book.) Usually, I enjoy understanding what I read and I don't normally know the origins of the words so whatever word feels like it would be from olde times works for me

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[ThinkerX]

I suggest deleting this:

Whenever she spoke, the words were so artfully crafted, one might miss the cunning intellect that intentionally appeared so shallow.

 

[MineOwnKing]

Giving a thumbs up to the use of out of style words, depends on many factors.

If the novel is historical, then much would depend on gender, wealth and class. Certainly the reader would have expectations for style and dialogue for historically accurate novels.

Fantasy novels in general will get a pass. Common sense and trust in the reader is all that is needed. Readers understand more than we give them credit for. We can assume that they want to enjoy the experience and begin with an open mind.

One telling sign that a word is not a good fit, is when a word is obviously thrown in by the writer. It looks out of place. Anybody can see it, not just writers.

The word strumpet, should be easily recognizable and not in any way out of place.

Using obsolete or rare words in dialogue can have consequences. A little bit goes a long way.

Author narrative inflected with style is another matter. If you are in telling mode and you feel the need to extrapolate, then by all means, flex your thesauric muscle. Just keep it fun and interesting.

Modern readers want to click with dialogue they feel in tune to.

I try to create successful dialogue in the same way as I would attempt conversation appropriate to a first time date with a woman.

Don't be too revealing, be confident but brief and above all, be funny.

Pretend the reader is your date. What will it take to get that first kiss?

 

[Caged Maiden]

@ ThinkerX - noted. I'm in first draft right now of a new first chapter, so I'll trim things up after I get a few reads through it. Right now, it's a struggle to just get the scenes written without cutting huge swaths because I worry the card game is boring.

@ MineOwnKing- so my world is fictional, and I tend to have more modern-ish dialogues, but I like to make internal reflection take a different tone, if that makes sense. I guess because the things that come out of my mouth sound baser than the things I think, and I feel my characters tailor their speech patterns similarly. If you use big words in real life, you sound pretentious. If you use horrible grammar, you look like an idiot. I have characters who purposefully use poor grammar (like the prostitute in the story, who plays dumb), and I have characters who are relatively soft-spoken, but they think very deeply. I guess I wanted to explain I'm only talking about internal thoughts, because dialogue is tailored toward each character, and whatever they'd say, it'll feel pretty middle of the road, not terribly modern, but not archaic. But internal thoughts are where I struggle for the right word choices sometimes, because again, I pay attention to when certain words came into being, and I try not to have my characters use words associated with another time period, like modern British slang words (since those are fun and we talk like that in our home...and they're so EXPRESSIVE) if the context is wrong and I'm writing a story that's supposed to have a different feel. So for example, if I use modern slang in a given book, it'll appear throughout, not just in one jarring little spot. I just wonder whether you folks have similar word conundrums, where you can't seem to find the right words from the right time periods, and which has to eventually give. Do you use the out of use or obscure word because it fits the right period, or do you go with a more modern word and figure it'll blend more seamlessly for a reader because odds are, the reader is more familiar with the more modern word than the out of fashion one?

Yeah, it's entirely possible that now that I might be freaking out prematurely, since I haven't even gotten the whole first chapter write yet.

 

[Deleted member 4265]

Personally I like strumpet, in that passage at least the rest of the words are easily understood so a fun word here and there does not harm. The only problem is when an author's every other word is something fancy it means either 1) the author loves their thesaurus a little too much 2) the author really does know a lot of fancy words but is being incredibly pretentious about it. If people who aren't English majors or writers are focusing on the prose and not the story that's bad.

Personally in my writing I usually don't use obscure words even when writing fantasy which is set in a vaguely medieval setting, or at least I use them very sparingly. However I also go out of my way not to use words that relate to things which don't exist in my world (I opt for dropping f bombs rather than saying 'damn' because the concept of eternal damnation doesn't exist and farewell rather than goodbye which is admittedly a little extreme)

When it comes to fantasy though, I don't think the modernity of the language makes that much of difference in terms of cluing the reader into the time period its based on. Like I said using things that are related directly to the modern world are jarring but only because they don't fit with the world building. The casual reader won't care whether you use floozy or strumpet or make up a word but I, for one would get annoyed if you called porcelain china when no such country exists. I always assume the characters in the story aren't actually speaking in my language since in a fantasy world English presumably doesn't exist so they're actually not using any of those words (and even if its historical fantasy very few people want to read a novel in Shakespearean English)

So basically my whole point was a few fun words peppered here and there can be fun, but so long as the words you use don't make reference to things outside your world it doesn't really matter.

On a side note strumpet is such a fun word, I might have to use it.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I have a personal rule where I try to do my best not to use words I'm not completely comfortable with. By this I mean comfortable with their meaning, feeling, and how to use them. My vocabulary isn't the most extensive and I'm not a fan of looking up new words to use. I'd rather stick with the ones I know.

The end result is that my language is quite modern. I use the same words I use when speaking to friends in person or online - or like here on the forums. Then again, my setting I'm writing for isn't historical but a present-day equivalent fantasy world, so using time-appropriate words isn't really needed.

I've still had issues similar to what you mention though.

When I wrote Enar's Vacation, the story takes place in a backwater countryside setting where people don't have clocks and don't measure time in minutes and hours, like in the big city. To reflect this, I opted out of using any exact measurements for time. The locals never say something like "just a minute" or "it'll just be a few hours".

I didn't make up new words though, but worked the text in a way that those words weren't needed. It's been a while since I wrote it, so I don't recall any specific examples, but I remember wrestling with it a few times - it was kind of fun.

 

[imagine123]

I just wonder whether you folks have similar word conundrums, where you can't seem to find the right words from the right time periods, and which has to eventually give. Do you use the out of use or obscure word because it fits the right period, or do you go with a more modern word and figure it'll blend more seamlessly for a reader because odds are, the reader is more familiar with the more modern word than the out of fashion one?

Yeah, it's entirely possible that now that I might be freaking out prematurely, since I haven't even gotten the whole first chapter write yet.

@ Caged Maiden, sounds like you might be freaking out prematurely. I think there's nothing wrong with strumpet (or @ Devouring Wolf's suggestion--floozy...which actually sounds better to me than strumpet...), and when I read fantasy, even fantasy that's supposed to be occurring in setting and time that corresponds to our past, it doesn't bother me when characters use more modern language. Now, if the story was supposed to be set in our world during a certain period, you're gonna want to match the language to the time. Otherwise, I would go for using language to make things easier for the reader, versus what might be more realistic when you take into account the era.

When I wrote Enar's Vacation, the story takes place in a backwater countryside setting where people don't have clocks and don't measure time in minutes and hours, like in the big city. To reflect this, I opted out of using any exact measurements for time. The locals never say something like "just a minute" or "it'll just be a few hours".

I've done a similar thing in my own writing. No sun, no clocks to tell the time, but luckily cities are near ravines that regularly let off colored steam...so people measure time in flashes and "cycles"....

 

[glutton]

I wouldn't have thought strumpet was that obscure a word though, but was speaking more generally.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Well, if poker exists in that world, then it must have words to describe things, so using words we know doesn't effect a thing in my opinion. We don't make ourselves and our readers learn a bunch of languages in order to read our novels, so no reason to make them learn a bunch of gambling terms already in English.

Strumpet is perfect there.

Poker boring... I had this concern with opening a novel with a dice game, and a game I created no less, although it has a base similarity to craps. Once I cleaned up the unnecessary depth of rules explanations, I haven't had a reader complain. Gambling is by nature drama, let that come out, and you should be good.

 

[Steerpike]

I think strumpet is fine. I also think fantasy readers are more comfortable with historical words, or even when they don't know them and have to infer meaning, than many think. For a good example, look at Kim Newman's Anno Dracula, which is a historical fantasy set in an alternate Victorian England where Vlad Tepes/Dracula survived. Newman writes very well and uses lots of language suited to the time period (and for those who like this sort of thing, the novel features among its characters real and fictional people such as Queen Victoria, Vlad Tepes, Dr. Jeckyll, Dr. Moreau, Oscar Wilde, Mycroft Holmes, etc. - many as background, some as active characters. One of the leaves, Genevieve, is a character I've always liked).

 

[Caged Maiden]

thanks for the insight on the game, because I've been struggling to make it have some action, but it's lacking in banter i hope to add in after a few people read what my first draft is.

Rewriting is a tedious chore, and writing in a whole new chapter is even more so. I have a hard time adding in scenes to completed works because it feels like it's tacked on. Since this is the first scene of the novel, and it's brand new, I have to make sure it's more engaging than what I had before, and I'm definitely worried that pitching a novel that has a 3k word poker game as its first chapter is a risk. Not only am I trying to get right into a character's head, but into her immediate goal (winning the game and conducting some important side business during a break), and I'm introducing the main conflict (the bard who wallops her and they develop a sort of feud after this moment), and also the fallout (she's broke because all her money was riding on herself to win, and now she has a debt to pay, very little cash on hand, and she's just lost face in front of her whole society of criminals, taking a blow to her status). This is a scene that needs to do a lot of work, and I'm just feeling really unsure of a card game being the right way to do it, but maybe that's a good, small correction of her world, just a table, with a few people, and a few relationships developing rapidly? Who knows. I guess we'll see when it's done. Then I can pass it off to a few readers to let me know where I need to make changes, before I can move ahead a few chapters and get back to the story I was in the middle of editing.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

That sounds like a challenge, no doubt about it! However, if you get it right, that poker game sounds like it could be awesome, a truly memorable moment in a novel... of course that brings in the horrifying word... execution! LOL.

Love to read it when you've got it hammered out. Ever want extra eyes on something just shoot me a PM.

 

[MineOwnKing]

I guess I wanted to explain I'm only talking about internal thoughts


It depends on what you're writing about.

If I'm going to go deep and philosophize poetically, then that work should match a scene appropriate to the tone.

In that case the rarer word should fit right in, but much depends on the talent of the writer.

This is the one thing that cannot be taught. You either have talent or not.

Self-confidence is the catalyst of talent.

And I don't mean cockiness either.

How do you know if your talent is strong or weak?

All that you can do is throw yourself at the mercy of the world and hope for the best.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'm a pretty good writer. Some of my shorts are really good, I've done a lot of exchanges with folks and can appreciate strong writing when I see it, and I have some pretty great partners who give honest, no pulled punches feedback. In my novels, I can accomplish amazing scenes, but i'm yet to pull whole novels together to really shine. So I'm pretty good, but not great. I don't have self-confidence. In anything. I always need validation, so I do my best and then listen to what other people I respect think, and then I make changes based on what I agree with. i guess that's as good as I can be right now, and maybe forever. I've said it before, that I wasn't a natural writing talent. Every great thing I've accomplished has been learned, and most of the really good stories I've written sort of accidentally turned out good, despite my attempts to edit them into overwroughtness or blandness. I know what mistakes to avoid, yet I fall into those traps on occasion as well. I'm just a writer, learning every day and still plodding forever forward on this path to my eventual goals. I try never to be cocky, and I seriously hear where you're coming from. Like I said, I'm worried about a huge poker game as an opening to a story, but what I had wasn't working and hasn't worked since I wrote the novel in 2008. That's why this is a perfect test for me at this point, to rewrite a story I love, so it can do justice to the concept and the books that follow it.

Openings are really tricky. Start too small, and you bore your audience to torpor. Start too big and you cause their head to spin and they give up caring. It's a delicate balance that I haven't mastered quite yet. As with any writing, some folks will like it, and some will hate it, and I just hope that by getting to hear both sides of the feedback coin, I can strengthen what doesn't work, and repeat what does.

 

[MineOwnKing]

I'm pretty sure you're talented or else it would be obvious not to continue and I don't see any of that in your work.

I use my own life experiences in other things as a basis to understand talent.

Levels of talent vary and with so much competition around it's hard to remain confident, especially with the dismal prospects of a payday.

It's impossible to quantify talent, but easy to recognize when it exits. Being born with a gift for writing does not make one a good writer either. A talented writer needs to develop skills over time too.

I had piano lessons for 15 years and played an hour everyday when I was a kid. Even though I can read music and play, I have no talent for it. People are born with that kind of talent and I definitely don't have it. No amount of practice can hide that.

My brother is an automotive designer and has been a gifted artist since an early age. This is another great example of how his fantastic drawings/paintings come naturally and make my stick figures look like prehistoric cave paintings.

Words are my thing but that's not enough.

It takes time, hard work and passion.

I think you have the bases covered.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Well thanks, King, I appreciate it. I've been writing 14 years, so I hope i'm getting somewhere with it HA!

We all have our own journeys, and no one's is like another. I wrote for a decade to entertain myself as a mom with small kids, and really, I only began writing because in 2001 I sold cars and there were many long, lonely hours to fill waiting for clients to walk in the dealership. I wrote at my desk to look busy, when there was nothing else to do. I never meant to write a dozen books, they just happened, one a year, until I had ten of them, and then thought I might actually want to publish something one day. I joined up here in 2011 and sort of started a new journey, to learn HOW TO WRITE! I think I'm more obsessed with the craft than most writers I meet, but I'm not a world-builder or even very well-read. I tend to read historical romance because I can finish a small book that doesn't require a lot of thinking, in an afternoon, and I get them for a buck at Goodwill. Fantasy has always been in my heart, though, so that's what I write. Gritty, romantic fantasy. Because that's what I love.

Last year, I was about out of hope. I felt the things I write don't appeal to readers, and I might as well just keep writing for myself. but then I read The Lies of Locke Lamora, and I couldn't put it down, because it was everything I always aimed for when writing stories. After that huge boost, I threw myself back into it and decided it was time to actually start doing overhauls of some of my best books, to hopefully get them where I need them to be to grab an agent's attention.

This is not an easy road, writing. It's not for the faint of heart or the timid. But I think I have the tenacity, though Im a soft soul. I think i have what it takes to make my stories good, if only I can get over my fears and anxieties about messing up or upsetting my family when they read my material. I've struggled with that for years, being a closet writer until 2013, when I finally told my friends and family that I write. Of course there were a generous amount of," Oh, that's nice, dear," comments about it, but then I just got over that sort of dismissive attitude, and embraced the passion inside me that won't be subdued. I'm a writer in my heart, because my life has been too good not to share. My experiences find their way into my stories, and I'd like to think those have lead to my best scenes. Now, I just gotta find the mental fortitude to actually see a few manuscripts totally through to the end, and actually believe they're good enough to start querying in earnest. I've sent out a dozen queries over the past couple years, but truth be told, I just wasn't ready, I was testing the water. But my husband is my biggest supporter, though he's never read my work, other than my writing articles for MS, and I know he wants me to push to publish. I've gone through some rough personal things in the last five years, and writing has been a big part of my life, and one of the things that's kept me feeling connected to the world and positive, when my personal demons wreaked havoc on my emotional stability. I have chronic pain and am bipolar, and it's been hard to face some of my personal challenges at times, all the while trying to be a mother and wife, and now starting a career in real estate.

Writing is something I'm happy to keep for myself, but I'm more interested in sharing it, even if only in a small way. You guys on this forum are my biggest support network, and that's why any time I have questions or concerns, I run right here and share my thoughts. I can't say how much this forum and its citizens mean to me.

I want everyone's journey to be productive and happy, and also a source of joy and pride, as mine has been. But I know all too well the fight we all must face when negativity creeps up and those little voices in your head tell you to just stop torturing yourself.

I've been watching Harry Potter all day on TV, and though I don't love the movies, I remember how much the books engaged me when I was reading them years ago. I know anyone can make their stories visible o the world when they choose to, and i just hope that one day, I'm ready to hit the publish button on my own, if I can't succeed at wowing an agent. i'm okay with that possibility too, but I'd like to try querying first, which means I need to whip a bunch of manuscripts into shape, if I'm gonna get there.

Sometimes, I derail myself, like I did on this word choice thing (again), and i'm just reminded that we all do this sometimes. Research, map-making, world-building, pick your poison. It's par for the course, isn't it? 'll be so excited in a couple weeks when this new first chapter is ready to be read. I have a few people waiting to crit it, and I seriously can't wait to share it!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Confidence is a fickle friend. And we all certainly have our procrastination bugaboos... mine includes revisions and writer websites, LOL. So at least I've trimmed the count to things related to writing, that's a win! I would fall into the category of always being told I was a natural, wanting to write, but never having the confidence and drive to finish anything. Screenwriting helped this, but it just wasn't the direction I wanted to go, despite some interest in a couple scripts, because no way in hell I wanted to move to Hollywood to really pursue it... I'm not a city person, in the least. In my 20's, I might have gone for it. So, back to epic fantasy.

For the first time I put down a chapter and didn't look at it for a year or more, and by golly! I didn't hate the writing when I picked it up again! That's the confidence boost that is propelling me to finish my first novel, should ring in at 100k by end of February latest. But still... I feel I've got the writing solid, and have natural turns of phrase, and creativity for big story-points... But I still lack confidence in the glue that holds everything together and makes it pop! We'll see, I won't hit that portion of writing until I get the first draft down.

So, long story short, I feel your pain! Natural or not, its a lot of work. Hard work is always best. And "natural" writer means less than a lot of other natural abilities.