How to 'ping pong' between two point of views without it seeming formulaic?

[Naruzeldamaster]

So for this chapter I'm writing, it's 90% going to be in the male lead's perspective.

But for part of it I want to switch to the female Lead since she's also having her first impressions of the Male Lead. I want to clearly show how they both initially get under eachother's skin. (both in positive ways and negative ones)

My general way of doing it is after the character I'm switching to speaks.

But is that too formulaic or is there some other way/time I could switch?

 

[Finchbearer]

‘Ping pong’ to me suggests that you’d be changing perspectives every other paragraph, but you say 90% of the chapter is the male leads perspective.

I can’t speak as an experienced writer, so, as a reader I’d say that in almost every book I’ve read (and enjoyed) this is just not done. I think your thinking is along the lines of ‘I need to get across how the other is feeling in that moment’, but rather than trying to fit this all into one chapter, I’ve seen it done where the other character in the next chapter is thinking about the other character in an aftermath scene.

You could also achieve what you want to achieve through clever dialogue and showing what the other character is doing without having to write the story from their actual perspective. What is their body language like? What are they saying that would suggest chemistry or lack of? Etc.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

‘Ping pong’ to me suggests that you’d be changing perspectives every other paragraph, but you say 90% of the chapter is the male leads perspective.

I can’t speak as an experienced writer, so, as a reader I’d say that in almost every book I’ve read (and enjoyed) this is just not done. I think your thinking is along the lines of ‘I need to get across how the other is feeling in that moment’, but rather than trying to fit this all into one chapter, I’ve seen it done where the other character in the next chapter is thinking about the other character in an aftermath scene.

You could also achieve what you want to achieve through clever dialogue and showing what the other character is doing without having to write the story from their actual perspective. What is their body language like? What are they saying that would suggest chemistry or lack of? Etc.

So save the female Lead's reactions/thoughts about the male lead for the next chapter? I think I can do that.
There's one scene in the entire chapter where the pair are interacting, but for the most part the chapter is going to be from the male lead's perspective.

 

[Finchbearer]

As far as I’m aware and from what I remember from the numerous books I’ve read that would make more sense for the reader, but that’s not to say don’t do it. I’ve definitely been tempted to do that myself when writing because I want to convey how both parties feel about the other person in that scene…but it just felt messy and ill-conceived.

Someone else might chime in with some good ideas for you.

 

[pmmg]

I will agree with Finch on this (and caveat that I've not seen it either). Dont head-hop to the other character. Find another way to get this across, even if it means a new chapter that revisits the event.

How often is this Character a POV after this scene? Best to stay in the template you have constructed.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I will agree with Finch on this (and caveat that I've not seen it either). Dont head-hop to the other character. Find another way to get this across, even if it means a new chapter that revisits the event.

How often is this Character a POV after this scene? Best to stay in the template you have constructed.

I probably will do that yeah, unneeded head hopping is one of my biggest habits from high school writing that I'm trying to curb. Trying to tell stories that are too big for my current writing chops is also a bad habit. So this current one is far smaller in scope and stakes.

 

[FifthView]

So save the female Lead's reactions/thoughts about the male lead for the next chapter? I think I can do that.

Yes, probably.

You could also switch with a new scene, even a very short scene, at the end of the chapter written in the female lead's POV. After experiencing the largest chunk of narrative meat in the male POV, the female POV appears to offer a new spin on what's just happened.

An example of this approach is in the final scenes of LOTR: The Two Towers. We're outside viewing Frodo, Sam and Faramir having a discussion of things to come, with Gollum silent and acting a bit suspiciously, then Faramir has strong words for Gollum and a bit later Sam has words for Gollum. Gollum professes innocence and acquiescence, but he's always a bit odd. Later, when we return to them, we get Gollum's POV (or at least us viewing him with a laser focus) and see where he really stands, as Smeagol and Gollum are brought back into alignment hah.

As a very broad rule, keeping the narrative fresh and engaging requires some mystery for the reader. The point to keep reading to the next paragraph, next page, next scene or chapter is to find out exactly what is happening and where it's going. Keeping one character's innermost thoughts hidden for stretches—keeping the reader guessing from that character's objective actions and words—works to create this tension, this need to be certain. OR, it can make the eventual reveal a kind of sudden twist in understanding.

 

[M. Popov]

I think that's an interesting question.

Since the majority of the chapter is going to be presented through the male lead's perspective, a sudden perspective shift might take the reader out. However, I believe a good way to get the thoughts and feelings of the female lead is if the male lead shows familiarity.

One example I can give from the top of my head is from The Godfather. The first part of chapter 2 is shown through the Corleone lawyer's perspective, Tom Hagen and has him interacting with Vito Corleone. Vito asks Hagen a question, but Hagen, having known Vito for many years, understands that the question asked has a different meaning.

Hagen considered exactly what the Don meant by this question. Over the years he had learned that the Don’s values were so different from those of most people that his words also could have a different meaning. Did Woltz have character? Did he have a strong will? He most certainly did, but that was not what the Don was asking. Did the movie producer have the courage not to be bluffed?

It's not that much, but it lets you see into the head of Vito in the moment as well as reflecting the relationship between Vito and Hagen.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I think that's an interesting question.

Since the majority of the chapter is going to be presented through the male lead's perspective, a sudden perspective shift might take the reader out. However, I believe a good way to get the thoughts and feelings of the female lead is if the male lead shows familiarity.

One example I can give from the top of my head is from The Godfather. The first part of chapter 2 is shown through the Corleone lawyer's perspective, Tom Hagen and has him interacting with Vito Corleone. Vito asks Hagen a question, but Hagen, having known Vito for many years, understands that the question asked has a different meaning.

Hagen considered exactly what the Don meant by this question. Over the years he had learned that the Don’s values were so different from those of most people that his words also could have a different meaning. Did Woltz have character? Did he have a strong will? He most certainly did, but that was not what the Don was asking. Did the movie producer have the courage not to be bluffed?

It's not that much, but it lets you see into the head of Vito in the moment as well as reflecting the relationship between Vito and Hagen.

Not sure how I can communicate familiarity with him meeting the female lead the first time though. He can only make predictions about how she actually is from information his two minions have told him.

He's dealt with women of her 'type' (personality) but he hasn't met someone as chaotic (not evil, just unpredictable, since she's a kitsune) as the female lead.
He's the sort who can analyze someone's capabilities from watching the small things they do, including things like their heartbeat. (he has heightened senses for story reasons but is otherwise a normal non magical human)

My plan is to have both of them recognize that they get under eachother's skin almost instantly (well the obvious reason being love, but other reasons too. it's one of those 'we're really not so different but the things that are UGH' pairings) and they go to a sort of rivalry phase. Being that the Kitsune is that way with every interesting person she meets though, I have to think of some ways to drive her curiosity toward him.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Yeah, I'd say avoid head hopping at all costs - you're just going to confuse and maybe annoy the reader. So since you're doing ninety percent of the chapter with the male MC, make that a hundred percent, and show the female MC's feelings through expressions or dialogue or or the male MC's reactions to what he picks up from the female MC.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Hi,

Yeah, I'd say avoid head hopping at all costs - you're just going to confuse and maybe annoy the reader. So since you're doing ninety percent of the chapter with the male MC, make that a hundred percent, and show the female MC's feelings through expressions or dialogue or or the male MC's reactions to what he picks up from the female MC.

Cheers, Greg.

He's one of those types that overanalyzes everything to be honest, so I could probably convey his intrigue/annoyances about her through that. I just don't have much practice in two characters conversing (who are 'main' characters) without head hopping. I know I can open the next chapter with the female lead ruminating over her encounter with the male lead. But I don't know if I can do that without using a cliche ._.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Head hopping is a valid tool in the writer's toolbox and is, in fact, very commonly used in Romance. We've done it a few times and it's worked well, mostly for scenes where the story is happening inside more than one character's head. So, no, don't avoid it at all costs, but do make sure to use it only when you need to use it. In Fantasy, head hopping isn't used as often as in Romance.

This is the ending of our second book, Ties of Blood and Bone. The story is happening all over the place, so as the drafter I had to head hop like a grasshopper to keep up, but we think it turned out well.

*If this is spoilery for anyone, I'm sorry, but it's been out a while. You probably won't know what's going on, anyway. *

...

Brian watched Jessie smile at Fitz with a small sigh, his eyes sad, and then he bent and picked up a small Christmas ornament button from the dirt. Winter ached for him. She ached for Lizzie. She ached for the ones who did not get to have happy endings.

Alerich cupped Winter’s face. “Pregnant?”

Winter smiled at him, pulled from her thoughts. “So, they say…”

Alerich kissed her tenderly.

Winter kissed him back, and then pointed to an empty corner. “Your focus object was thrown over there, I believe.”

Alerich gave her a loving smile and went to retrieve it, pulling it gently from the dirt and slipping it with its broken chain into his pocket.

Etienne moved away from them but couldn’t tear his eyes away. He was losing her, losing her as he watched.

Cian moved up beside him and took his hand. “It’s not over, Etienne. She loves you, too.”

Etienne sighed. “I can’t compete with that.”

Cian hugged him. “We’ll see.”

Etienne tilted his head just to one side. “Sirens. We need to get out of here before the humans arrive.”

Alerich looked at Bastian’s body. “We need to give them something to put out. They can’t find Bastian. We can’t let the humans have the body.”

“Or Odette,” Thomas said, his voice quiet, his eyes on the woman in the corner. “We found her body in your grandmother’s room.”

Alerich nodded, saddened, determined. “Fire, then. You guys go find Etienne’s car. I’ll take care of burning this place down.”

Elspeth stared at Alerich and his new woman. The woman he had only known for a couple days. That her father, her protector, had died to let him keep.

Her belly raged with pain and hatred. She had the horrible feeling that she had forgotten something. She had spent enough time around the demon to know what was happening. Arariel had taken a piece of her soul. With the demon banished, she knew she would never get it back.

Thomas knelt beside her, face full of compassion. “El, I’m so sorry. I know what he meant to you. If there’s anything I can—”

Elspeth pushed up to her knees, choking back tears. “Just get me the fuck out of here.”

 

[Malik]

The easiest way to do this is to frame the story in third person omniscient subjective; this way, character POV doesn't matter since it's all in the fictional narrator's POV.

If you haven't done that, and you're well into the novel in close third, you'll need to do the second POV in separate chapters. If you need the POVs to be happening at the same time, you can rewrite the same scene in a second POV and use that for the follow-on chapter. You're welcome.

If you're writing in first person, you're screwed. Rework it as a frame narrative with occasional frames in first person from the the second character's POV and the rest in third--if that won't give your story away. If it will, then you'll need to pick another POV and write it again.

What you're facing is the single biggest reason to work from rough drafts, synopses, and outlines--knowing your story ahead of time will ensure that you choose the POV at the outset that lets you tell it the way you need it told. Most novels that die on the vine do so because the author chose the wrong POV and hit a point where they couldn't tell the story in it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

The easiest way to do this is to frame the story in third person omniscient subjective; this way, character POV doesn't matter since it's all in the fictional narrator's POV.

If you haven't done that, and you're well into the novel in close third, you'll need to do the second POV in separate chapters. If you need the POVs to be happening at the same time, you can rewrite the same scene in a second POV and use that for the follow-on chapter. You're welcome.

If you're writing in first person, you're screwed. Rework it as a frame narrative with occasional frames in first person from the the second character's POV and the rest in third--if that won't give your story away. If it will, then you'll need to pick another POV and write it again.

What you're facing is the single biggest reason to work from rough drafts, synopses, and outlines--knowing your story ahead of time will ensure that you choose the POV at the outset that lets you tell it the way you need it told. Most novels that die on the vine do so because the author chose the wrong POV and hit a point where they couldn't tell the story in it.

All of this, plus extra for the bolded. We did exactly this during the 3rd Act of our third book and it worked really well. Each chapter (we do a scene a chapter) was just a bit different and went in different directions, and we were very happy with the results. Also, yes, planning helps so very much with juggling like this. Our last outline was 100 pages long. Book came in at 640 pages, printed. Go forth with confidence and write.

 

[Mad Swede]

I'm with A. E. Lowan on this. Head hopping between characters in a single scene can and does work. As with any other writing technique you should use it as appropriate for both the scene and your style of writing.

The biggest single change my editor made to my first book was to make me change away from one POV per chapter. She didn't - and doesn't - think it appropriate for my writing style, and she also didn't think it appropriate to my characterisation and the way I'd built the scenes. Bear in mind that I'm a Swedish writer, so the sorts of story telling styles and conventions we have over here may not be right for other markets.

 

[FifthView]

So much depends on what you want to do, what you've learned to do, where your personal inclinations lie, etc.

I'm glad to see some championing of omniscient and so-called "head hopping," although I believe that latter term is generally restricted to describing negatively what is intended to be a limited POV but isn't, heh. We tend to use the term loosely here though, applying it to any style of writing with quick transitions from head to head, but in omniscient that quick switching is often a positive, not negative, feature of the writing.

Even so, know what you are getting into. If you are unfamiliar with that style of writing, become familiar with it or accept the likelihood you'll be screwing it up, and badly, until you do become familiar with it. If you do it, commit to is, because going only halfway or less will cause a lot of readers to stumble.

 

[Rexenm]

You could try italics or courier. The My Life As… series has a protagonist writing his story half the time, in a different font. He committed his life to Christ though, because he was a bit of a *cough* nerd.

 

[Rexenm]

Just googled it and couldn’t find it, but I found it by searching Wally Mcdoogle, the MC.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

All of this, plus extra for the bolded. We did exactly this during the 3rd Act of our third book and it worked really well. Each chapter (we do a scene a chapter) was just a bit different and went in different directions, and we were very happy with the results. Also, yes, planning helps so very much with juggling like this. Our last outline was 100 pages long. Book came in at 640 pages, printed. Go forth with confidence and write.

I have decided to do every other chapter in the other lead character's POV. As for planning, the story isn't exactly 'planned' per say, as in like, every last detail with full character bibles and stuff. But the actual plot and everything is something I've been toying with for several years. It's the one idea where I have the start/middle/end planned and all that's left is to sit down and write the thing. I figure switching points of view will be a good way to fill in those annoying 'blanks' in the plot, which is a problem regardless of what point of view I'm writing in. With my story ideas they always come in like, a handful of 'key' scenes that don't stop bugging me til I write em.

 

[The Dark One]

Not suggesting you do this - it's just for information.

My second finished novel - never published, but went close - was incredibly complex. It was about (on one level) identity and gender and the 1st person POVs were numerous. It was so complicated I wrote the voices in different fonts and even changed POV mid-sentence at times.

It worked for me, and one outvoted editor called it a work of genius.

That made two people out of 8 billion.

I learned to tell a simpler story and the next book was published.