BearBear
Archmage
I am not planning on sales so it's a moot point for me, but in your business, to what degree do things get cut or steered by what sells over what you consider fun to write?
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The divide between what's fun and what sells, do you compromise?
- Thread starter BearBear
- Start date
LordFalco
Minstrel
100% fun. That way, you write with flair and confidence, not afraid to use those odd turns of phrase. It makes characters all the more lifelike. True, it's a niche market, but you never know.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
I think the choice is a false dichotomy. Why cant they be both together?
I write the stuff that interests me, and I want to aspire to a degree of professionalism in my craft. One does not preclude the other.
If in time, I come to feel I said the stuff I wanted to say, I might look at my skill see if I can make some bucks and then quit my day job
But even then, why leave one job to get another I dont like. I dont think I will ever be in one camp or another, but somewhere in both of them.
I write the stuff that interests me, and I want to aspire to a degree of professionalism in my craft. One does not preclude the other.
If in time, I come to feel I said the stuff I wanted to say, I might look at my skill see if I can make some bucks and then quit my day job
But even then, why leave one job to get another I dont like. I dont think I will ever be in one camp or another, but somewhere in both of them.- Thread starter
- #4
BearBear
Archmage
I think you missed the point but I'll forgive you since you're a dragon and a good friend of mine is a half-dragon catgirl.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
I am open to it being about something different.
If I look at this as an either/or game, I am sure I would write less to market, and more to tell the story I want to tell. I am not sure that is the same as fun. I'd say it more has meaning.
If I look at this as an either/or game, I am sure I would write less to market, and more to tell the story I want to tell. I am not sure that is the same as fun. I'd say it more has meaning.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
My base philosophy is to write what I enjoy and hope/assume there are others like me, heh heh. The trick is then finding those others and convincing them to give it a shot. Writing to market is an oddball piece of advice. If 1000 people write to market X, Y% will succeed, and therefore those people will call the advice good and pass along the advice to another thousand people who write to market A and B% of people succeed, and they pass along the advice. This is the basis for a helluva lot of Guru success stories, heh heh. The 90% who piledrive their faces into the concrete of failure aren't the ones making the Testimonials. "What sells" is a moving target. Star Wars barely got made. Harry Potter barely got published. The zeitgeist is a mystery, otherwise Hollywood would only produce hits, not the shit they do.
So, if I tell a thousand people to "write what you love, and not worry about what sells!" X% will succeed, and they will spread my advice... etc etc. If neither "writing what sells" is guaranteed to sell or "write what you love" is guaranteed to sell, you damned well might as well write what you love to write,.
CAVEAT: In the current climate, if you want traditional Publishers, you want to write what they want; there's no doubt about that. But what the people want? That's tricky to give them because what entertains can shift on a whim.
Another great one with Indie writers was and maybe still is, Write to a niche! Create a niche! Get that small group to love you! And again, X number will do it, Y% will succeed...
So, if I tell a thousand people to "write what you love, and not worry about what sells!" X% will succeed, and they will spread my advice... etc etc. If neither "writing what sells" is guaranteed to sell or "write what you love" is guaranteed to sell, you damned well might as well write what you love to write,.
CAVEAT: In the current climate, if you want traditional Publishers, you want to write what they want; there's no doubt about that. But what the people want? That's tricky to give them because what entertains can shift on a whim.
Another great one with Indie writers was and maybe still is, Write to a niche! Create a niche! Get that small group to love you! And again, X number will do it, Y% will succeed...
pmmg
Myth Weaver
That's called survivorship bias.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
That's not nearly as fun to type.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
I was typing it for its ability to sell.
At your point of experience, the divide between enjoying writing and selling it is finishing. You won't finish a project you don't love and believe in, so write the books you want to read and worry about writing to market later.
- Thread starter
- #11
BearBear
Archmage
I definitely get this, my thought was then, let the editors and lawyers do what they must and don't look at what horrifying things they did to your baby.
Prince of Spires
Auror
I've got my own theory about why write-to-market works for some.
The common story you find about write to market success is someone who published a few novels, none of them sell really well. They take a hard look at the market, find a niche they want to sell in, study it, write a book that fits there, publish it and suddenly they are getting sales.
The funny thing is that readers have no idea if your book is written to market or not when they pick it up. A reader can read the first few pages to see if they like the writing style. And they can pick up some of the clues about (sub)genre from the first few pages. But there's no guarantee that you'll stick close to the genre expectations and write to market. It might influence if people buy the second book, but not the first.
Why does it work then? Well, a few reasons. For starters, it often seems to work for people who've already written a few books. Writing is a skill, and skills get better as you practise. Having written a few books means that the next one will likely be better in quality.
Add to that that people study the subgenre they're going to write in. That means they will have a well structured and well paced story. They will know when they need to set up certain things that are to be paid of later. They'll know how to build their characters to match the genre expectations. This means that not only is the writing quality likely better, but it's very well possible that the characters and the story structure itself will also be better (at least for the genre they're writing in).
And finally, the big reason is marketing. Genre is not a writing tool, it's a marketing tool. It's where to shelve your book in a bookstore. It's who is going to read your book. If you write to market you will know who the audience for your book is. That makes it a whole lot easier to actually market to those people. You'll know where they hang out online, you'll know what other books they read, and so on. That means it's a lot easier to drive traffic that likes your book to your book, which means it's more likely to sell.
All this means that writing to market can work, but not because specifically of writing to market. It's a case of knowing your audience, and putting out a good book. If you write a good book and know what the audience for that book is you can achieve the same result.
Another thing to note is that it's also very much a romance thing. Romance has very specific, very well defined sub-genres. And readers who like to read that very specific sub-genre. I don't think there is the fantasy equivalent of the Steamy MM shapeshifter werewolf enemies to lovers romance subgenre. Fantasy doesn't go that specific. You get broad strokes, with a lot looser "rules" for that genre.
All in all, I agree with pmmg that it's a false dichotomy.
The common story you find about write to market success is someone who published a few novels, none of them sell really well. They take a hard look at the market, find a niche they want to sell in, study it, write a book that fits there, publish it and suddenly they are getting sales.
The funny thing is that readers have no idea if your book is written to market or not when they pick it up. A reader can read the first few pages to see if they like the writing style. And they can pick up some of the clues about (sub)genre from the first few pages. But there's no guarantee that you'll stick close to the genre expectations and write to market. It might influence if people buy the second book, but not the first.
Why does it work then? Well, a few reasons. For starters, it often seems to work for people who've already written a few books. Writing is a skill, and skills get better as you practise. Having written a few books means that the next one will likely be better in quality.
Add to that that people study the subgenre they're going to write in. That means they will have a well structured and well paced story. They will know when they need to set up certain things that are to be paid of later. They'll know how to build their characters to match the genre expectations. This means that not only is the writing quality likely better, but it's very well possible that the characters and the story structure itself will also be better (at least for the genre they're writing in).
And finally, the big reason is marketing. Genre is not a writing tool, it's a marketing tool. It's where to shelve your book in a bookstore. It's who is going to read your book. If you write to market you will know who the audience for your book is. That makes it a whole lot easier to actually market to those people. You'll know where they hang out online, you'll know what other books they read, and so on. That means it's a lot easier to drive traffic that likes your book to your book, which means it's more likely to sell.
All this means that writing to market can work, but not because specifically of writing to market. It's a case of knowing your audience, and putting out a good book. If you write a good book and know what the audience for that book is you can achieve the same result.
Another thing to note is that it's also very much a romance thing. Romance has very specific, very well defined sub-genres. And readers who like to read that very specific sub-genre. I don't think there is the fantasy equivalent of the Steamy MM shapeshifter werewolf enemies to lovers romance subgenre. Fantasy doesn't go that specific. You get broad strokes, with a lot looser "rules" for that genre.
All in all, I agree with pmmg that it's a false dichotomy.
Finchbearer
Istar
I’ve started getting my stuff online recently and I’ve had some good feedback, but my stories probably aren’t going to appeal to the masses. But do I enjoy thinking about and writing my stories? Yeah! So does it matter to me at this stage? No.
I understand I could write a typical YA fantasy romance with some basic principles, but that would bore me to my core if I were to follow those tropes.
I have come to release that I could never write the sort of stuff that the masses go crazy over, and that’s fine by me.
I understand I could write a typical YA fantasy romance with some basic principles, but that would bore me to my core if I were to follow those tropes.
I have come to release that I could never write the sort of stuff that the masses go crazy over, and that’s fine by me.
Mad Swede
Auror
I started writing because I wanted and needed to do so. In doing so I took note of C S Lewis' comment that he wrote the sort of books he wanted to read. And that was what I did. As it turned out, those books sell quite well - here in Sweden. So I manage to write both what is fun for me to write as well as what sells. Whether the books will sell in the English language market remains to be seen, and to be honest it isn't something which drives me as that isn't why I write.
With all that written, the basics still apply: a good plot, good characterisation, good dialogue and good pacing. And you have to finish what write.
In your case you've said previously that you want to write something many will find offensive or otherwise controversial. That's fine, but make sure you go into it with you eyes open - you could be on the receiving end of more than you bargained for, at which point it won't be so much fun.
With all that written, the basics still apply: a good plot, good characterisation, good dialogue and good pacing. And you have to finish what write.
In your case you've said previously that you want to write something many will find offensive or otherwise controversial. That's fine, but make sure you go into it with you eyes open - you could be on the receiving end of more than you bargained for, at which point it won't be so much fun.
- Thread starter
- #15
BearBear
Archmage
pmmg
Myth Weaver
Sorry Bear,You and the dragon:
I actually do appreciate anyone who puts up new threads, and even if the subject seems to have an obvious 'smarty pants' answer, they sometimes gain a new life just by the comments people make.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
Appealing to the masses might be great, but I can appeal to far less than them and still have great success.
If just .00001% of the people on earth read my story, that is still 80,000 people.
Prince of Spires
Auror
The main thing people forget about book sales is that even best-sellers don't sell all that well (a few rare unicorns excepted). To make it onto the NY Times best-seller list, you only need to sell between 4,000 and 8,000 books in a week (yes, there are a lot of ifs and buts about the list, they're not relevant in this discussion). As in, to be one of the best selling fiction books in a given week, you don't have to appeal to the masses. There are highschools with more students than that.
If you can get 1,000 fans and get them to buy your book in a short space of time, then you actually have a pretty big hit on your hands. Does that number allow you to make a full-time living as an author? No, of course not. But few authors manage that anyway.
ScribeI don't understand why someone would write to try and make a ton of money, for me, it's passion that driveswhat I do. I know thatt I want to self publish my books eventually, and that a arket can be made with the genre I like, because I read it and see you can have an auience for it. Whether that'll make me boatloads of money, I don't really care, because I am doing this because I've always loved writing, and just want myy stuff to be read, and also want the accomplishment of putting my wor out there.
I've also published music with the same idea. I've made money at it, but it's not quit your job levels of money. Still, people listen, and I'm happy they do. If I want to make a real go at it, I know I'd have to put a lot more marketing work into both writing and music, and I'm not sure if that's what I wnt to be doing at the end of the day.
So I say both. Have fun, make some cash at it. Set your standards low, you'll be surprised what you get when you just put your best efforts out tere at your own pace. Maybe later, you'll want to do it more seriously, but pacing yourself to see if it's something you do enjoy is just as important.
I've also published music with the same idea. I've made money at it, but it's not quit your job levels of money. Still, people listen, and I'm happy they do. If I want to make a real go at it, I know I'd have to put a lot more marketing work into both writing and music, and I'm not sure if that's what I wnt to be doing at the end of the day.
So I say both. Have fun, make some cash at it. Set your standards low, you'll be surprised what you get when you just put your best efforts out tere at your own pace. Maybe later, you'll want to do it more seriously, but pacing yourself to see if it's something you do enjoy is just as important.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
Oh. I think i can understand why they will write for a ton of money.
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