Mindfire
Istar
Well if you're going to believe that, why not go all the way? As you see it, morality is the enemy of freedom, so why don't we all live immoral lives so as to exercise our "freedom" to the fullest?
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Impact and responsibility (TRIGGER WARNING)
- Thread starter Feo Takahari
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Well if you're going to believe that, why not go all the way? As you see it, morality is the enemy of freedom, so why don't we all live immoral lives so as to exercise our "freedom" to the fullest?
Right. I don't think freedom relieves us of our responsibilities, but rather, gives us the opportunity to identify them for ourselves. But we still face the intrinsic consequences - like being seen as a jerk - when we choose not to.
Kit
Maester
Here's yet another thing to consider re: "child porn". There are people actually getting ARRESTED and tossed in prison for having certain webcomics downloaded on their computers. While some of these webcomics are certainly of very questionable taste and morality, I've seen some that are quite difficult to categorize. (Loveless has been serializing for over a decade, and there is *NO* sex in the comic, but there's a 20YO man kissing a 12YO boy on the mouth.) I have some mixed feelings about censorship, and what the definition of child porn should be, but I do have a problem with the idea of someone going to prison because of a COMIC BOOK on their laptop. These are DRAWINGS.
Ophiucha
Auror
Christopher Handley, I remember his case causing a lot of talk in online anime communities a few years ago. (Censored but potentially NSFW under link.)
Thanks. That gives me the information I was interested in, since such cases immediately raise First Amendment issues. It looks like he ultimately pleaded guilty on a charge that requires not only the type of depictions referred to above, but that is also obscene. The addition of the word "obscene" is significant, because obscene materials get no First Amendment protections. If you possessed materials of a similar subject matter, but that was not obscene (as legally defined) then the First Amendment would shield you from prosecution.
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
I think you're missing an important aspect (which is my fault because I didn't make myself clear):
I'm speaking specifically in response to responsibility imposed on you - either by others, by law, by society in general, etc.
Responsibility that's imposed on you by yourself is a quite different matter as is responsibility imposed on you by religion.
To me, God and my own conscience impose morality on me, and I'm quite fine with that.
If you tell me, "You need to behave in a moral fashion," my answer is, "Why? What is your authority to tell me that?"
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
I agree with this.
My point, which I apparently didn't make very well, was:
I felt the poster's statement that precipitated my response was an example of believing two contradictory things (doublethink from 1984). He seems to be saying, "I don't believe in censorship" while at the same time saying "You don't have the freedom to publish what you want because you have a responsibility not to." To me, there wasn't much difference between his second statement and censorship.
Mindfire
Istar
Oh, alright. That makes much more sense.
First I want to /clap for Caged Maiden. Well said!
This whole deviation onto child pornography is interesting. Indeed, there is no black and white here. It brings to mind 2 of our series characters.
The first is a twenty-five-hundred-year-old vampire. Terrifying, amoral, and sadistic in the extreme. She was married at eleven and bore two sons to her husband before she was turned at fifteen. Culturally consistent with her time period. She was considered a woman grown, and so she was married off. So, I have an ancient vampire running around in the body of a tiny fifteen-year-old Japanese girl. At the start of the series, she is pregnant with twins, her first children in over two millenia. Is she sexually active... well, dur. Are we going to show her being sexually active on screen? She is a sexual sadist who plays with knives and carves artwork into the bare skins of her victims, so it's gonna depend on what we need to show for the story. Would we hesitate to have her engage in sexual activity on screen if the story called for it just because she is physically a teen-ager? Nope.
The second character is a young man of eighteen at the start of the series. He will rise to be a great Hero of the age, and probably die saving the world or something like that, as Heroes tend to do. Haven't figured that out, yet. As a small child, he was pimped out by what was probably his step-father or mother's boyfriend - the man's relationship to our young Hero has never been firmly established as the young man does not remember his mother, or even his real name. At eleven he was beaten nearly to death by his pimp, but rescued by a police detective and adopted into a loving home where he has had nothing but protection and support ever since. However, the trauma of his past rides him, and he will have to deal with it for the rest of his life. He falls in love with a sixteen year old girl, but is afraid to approach her because she is "underage" and he fears being percieved as a predator, like those who preyed on him. Are we going to show his abuse on screen? It takes place years before the book, so probably not. However, he still needs to deal with it, and flashbacks happen. Do we find what happened to him to be repugnant? Of course we do, and that's why we write it. Things like this happen more often than are talked about - which is why it needs to be said.
In dealing with characters from many different cultures and time periods, where ages of maturity were often very different from our modern, first-world perspectives of increasingly extended juvenile periods, we have many series characters who were considered full-grown in their times who would be considered "children" now. We also have characters who have a variety of early sexual experiences, both consentual and not. Are we writing child pornography, then? Do we have some moral obligation to not tell these people's stories in an honest fashion? Could we inspire someone to run out and victimize a child, because some of our characters have been victimized? To all three, I would say, no.
This whole deviation onto child pornography is interesting. Indeed, there is no black and white here. It brings to mind 2 of our series characters.
The first is a twenty-five-hundred-year-old vampire. Terrifying, amoral, and sadistic in the extreme. She was married at eleven and bore two sons to her husband before she was turned at fifteen. Culturally consistent with her time period. She was considered a woman grown, and so she was married off. So, I have an ancient vampire running around in the body of a tiny fifteen-year-old Japanese girl. At the start of the series, she is pregnant with twins, her first children in over two millenia. Is she sexually active... well, dur. Are we going to show her being sexually active on screen? She is a sexual sadist who plays with knives and carves artwork into the bare skins of her victims, so it's gonna depend on what we need to show for the story. Would we hesitate to have her engage in sexual activity on screen if the story called for it just because she is physically a teen-ager? Nope.
The second character is a young man of eighteen at the start of the series. He will rise to be a great Hero of the age, and probably die saving the world or something like that, as Heroes tend to do. Haven't figured that out, yet. As a small child, he was pimped out by what was probably his step-father or mother's boyfriend - the man's relationship to our young Hero has never been firmly established as the young man does not remember his mother, or even his real name. At eleven he was beaten nearly to death by his pimp, but rescued by a police detective and adopted into a loving home where he has had nothing but protection and support ever since. However, the trauma of his past rides him, and he will have to deal with it for the rest of his life. He falls in love with a sixteen year old girl, but is afraid to approach her because she is "underage" and he fears being percieved as a predator, like those who preyed on him. Are we going to show his abuse on screen? It takes place years before the book, so probably not. However, he still needs to deal with it, and flashbacks happen. Do we find what happened to him to be repugnant? Of course we do, and that's why we write it. Things like this happen more often than are talked about - which is why it needs to be said.
In dealing with characters from many different cultures and time periods, where ages of maturity were often very different from our modern, first-world perspectives of increasingly extended juvenile periods, we have many series characters who were considered full-grown in their times who would be considered "children" now. We also have characters who have a variety of early sexual experiences, both consentual and not. Are we writing child pornography, then? Do we have some moral obligation to not tell these people's stories in an honest fashion? Could we inspire someone to run out and victimize a child, because some of our characters have been victimized? To all three, I would say, no.
- Thread starter
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Feo Takahari
Auror
I'm a Utilitarian, so for me, it boils down to the good or bad being done. I'm against a government censorship authority because I believe that such power would inevitably be abused (thus creating harm that would outweigh any potential good) but that doesn't necessarily conflict with the idea that the choice not to publish something creates a more positive outcome than the choice to publish it.
As for child porn, I've encountered people who look at drawings of it and are otherwise well-adjusted--they've learned how to compartmentalize. I've also encountered people who look at it and are deeply messed up.
(I've mentioned before that I was banned from another writing site. Another poster was accused [falsely, to my belief] of being a pedophile and banned. I flipped out, raged at the mods, and got banned as well. That community lost at least twenty members in that purge, and last I heard, it's still getting worse.)
As for child porn, I've encountered people who look at drawings of it and are otherwise well-adjusted--they've learned how to compartmentalize. I've also encountered people who look at it and are deeply messed up.
(I've mentioned before that I was banned from another writing site. Another poster was accused [falsely, to my belief] of being a pedophile and banned. I flipped out, raged at the mods, and got banned as well. That community lost at least twenty members in that purge, and last I heard, it's still getting worse.)
Folks,
While I am no fan of censorship, we as a community have a very real "big brother" that can't be ignored: Google.
A lot of very adult, even disturbing, subjects have been raised in this thread. Some of the terms used in this discussion can and will set off flags if they appear frequently enough. If the "r" word and the subject of "c.p." keep appearing in a thread, Google - and other search engines - will begin to think that this site is about those subjects.
This is a very serious concern, as Google sends us most of our traffic, and really keeps Mythic Scribes growing. If we get flagged, not only can traffic dry up, but we will end up blacklisted on many filters, which will keep folks from visiting our site at their workplace.
Therefore, I am requesting that we all take a break from discussing these vile topics. While I appreciate the respectful spirit that has permeated this thread, I have to look out for the well-being of this community.
Thank you for understanding.
While I am no fan of censorship, we as a community have a very real "big brother" that can't be ignored: Google.
A lot of very adult, even disturbing, subjects have been raised in this thread. Some of the terms used in this discussion can and will set off flags if they appear frequently enough. If the "r" word and the subject of "c.p." keep appearing in a thread, Google - and other search engines - will begin to think that this site is about those subjects.
This is a very serious concern, as Google sends us most of our traffic, and really keeps Mythic Scribes growing. If we get flagged, not only can traffic dry up, but we will end up blacklisted on many filters, which will keep folks from visiting our site at their workplace.
Therefore, I am requesting that we all take a break from discussing these vile topics. While I appreciate the respectful spirit that has permeated this thread, I have to look out for the well-being of this community.
Thank you for understanding.
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