Not to be too flippant, but then . . . isn't that literally deus ex?
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Is this idea too "Deus Ex Machina"?
- Thread starter Mindfire
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Not to be too flippant, but then . . . isn't that literally deus ex?
Asura Levi
Sage
Maybe, one could say that the Tempest is the work of some kind of chaos god who linked all realms together, in a way that the area of the tempest exist in all of them, overlapping each other.
That would make it for the random and also for the possibility to go to someplace specifically by using powerful magic. But I can't see how you could summon then, not without catastrophic consequences.
I think in this way, without the direct interference of gods but as a sort of malevolent plaything from one of then it becomes less of a deus ex thing.
That would make it for the random and also for the possibility to go to someplace specifically by using powerful magic. But I can't see how you could summon then, not without catastrophic consequences.
I think in this way, without the direct interference of gods but as a sort of malevolent plaything from one of then it becomes less of a deus ex thing.
wordwalker
Auror
The usual problem with Deux Ex Machina seems to be something happening for dramatic reasons (and "randomness" usually seems like them) rather than logical ones, and so jumping outside the story's rules of what characters and readers think could lead to what next. At least, when it's also an important event rather than tiny quirks.
(On the other hand, real randomness or divine intervention could work, if you could convince your reader that it actually was random or that the gods were characters with their own reasons for what they did-- but that's a hard sell.)
A rule I've heard is that a story is allowed one great coincidence but never two, and I also think it works better if it's near the start of the story and gets it out of the way. Anything might fall out of the tempest once, but mostly the story should be how people use non-random choices to cope with whatever that one event was; otherwise if anything else goes into (or falls out of) the tempest, you have to work hard to show that the result really is random, or divine, or anything other than dramatic license shoving aside regular cause and effect.
(On the other hand, real randomness or divine intervention could work, if you could convince your reader that it actually was random or that the gods were characters with their own reasons for what they did-- but that's a hard sell.)
A rule I've heard is that a story is allowed one great coincidence but never two, and I also think it works better if it's near the start of the story and gets it out of the way. Anything might fall out of the tempest once, but mostly the story should be how people use non-random choices to cope with whatever that one event was; otherwise if anything else goes into (or falls out of) the tempest, you have to work hard to show that the result really is random, or divine, or anything other than dramatic license shoving aside regular cause and effect.
- Thread starter
- #24
Mindfire
Istar
Not necessarily. Divine providence is kinda of a running theme and shows up in other places as well, sometimes in more obvious ways than the tempests. One character even talks with God face to face. If it's established and foreshadowed that these kinds of things can happen, is it really DEM?
Myth Weaver
This may sound a little harsh, and please forgive me as I have has no sleep, but I find that whenever I even have to ask this question, the answer is "Yes."
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- #27
Mindfire
Istar
Different people have different standards, and my standard of what qualifies as DEM is more permissive than most. As I've mentioned, divine intervention is something of a theme. I was just wondering if I might have gone a little too far this time. In any case, I'm going to need a way to transport my characters across a large distance relatively quickly anyway. Tempests give me a lore-friendly way to do so. Cheating is okay as long as the reader doesn't notice, right?
Zero Angel
Auror
How about teleportation? I have a couple of races capable of it in my books. Or if teleportation is too modern, Gates, faerie paths, etc
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- #29
Mindfire
Istar
I don't really have any way to explain these things in-universe. I have one group with powers that appear to simulate teleportation, but really it's just sleight of hand and ninja tricks, like the smoke bomb vanish except with lightning bolts. And one advantage of tempests is that they only happen at sea, which is conveniently the only time I need them. If teleportation were an option just whenever, it would wreak havoc with the plot.
It sounds damn awesome to me.
I imagine a funnel cloud reaching down from the sky to envelope the characters.
So to prevent this "God of the Machine" from occurring, usually sufficient foreshadowing is enough. As long as you convince the reader, and not just yourself. 8-D For example, when the Tempest is going to arrive and perform its trick, maybe beforehand make the sky suitably dark and express the mood and lightning and such so you KNOW something's coming.
And if you work with it as a part of the culture, then there's definitely enough influence in there that the reader shouldn't be caught off guard. For example, mentioning research into this phenomenon. Like mages, as mentioned. Or have a (side?) character who is obsessed with these Tempests.
I think it sounds really cool! And the fact that you're asking the question means that you're actively taking measures to prevent any silly turns in events, so I think it will be fine.
I imagine a funnel cloud reaching down from the sky to envelope the characters.
So to prevent this "God of the Machine" from occurring, usually sufficient foreshadowing is enough. As long as you convince the reader, and not just yourself. 8-D For example, when the Tempest is going to arrive and perform its trick, maybe beforehand make the sky suitably dark and express the mood and lightning and such so you KNOW something's coming.
And if you work with it as a part of the culture, then there's definitely enough influence in there that the reader shouldn't be caught off guard. For example, mentioning research into this phenomenon. Like mages, as mentioned. Or have a (side?) character who is obsessed with these Tempests.
I think it sounds really cool! And the fact that you're asking the question means that you're actively taking measures to prevent any silly turns in events, so I think it will be fine.
Amanita
Maester
I don't think this should be a problem. Supernatural storms taking sailors to unknown places are rather common in older fantasy and fairytales/myths. The travels of Odysseus are one example were gods are getting involved directly.
It would be good to introduce this possibility before it actually happens and if possible not one chapter earlier but a bit further away from it actually becoming plot-relevant. Other people have made good suggestions for this already.
If it doesn't interfer with the story it might be good to have more than one instance of this happening or make sure that the consequences aren't purely positive right away.
Some people who care about realism very much and tend to dislike larger numbers of fantastical events in fantasy stories might be put off by something like this but many fantasy readers don't mind or even like to see some powerful supernatural events if they don't make victory too easy. And in stories where they like the rest, many of them aren't even bothered by that too much as examples like Harry Potter show.
It would be good to introduce this possibility before it actually happens and if possible not one chapter earlier but a bit further away from it actually becoming plot-relevant. Other people have made good suggestions for this already.
If it doesn't interfer with the story it might be good to have more than one instance of this happening or make sure that the consequences aren't purely positive right away.
Some people who care about realism very much and tend to dislike larger numbers of fantastical events in fantasy stories might be put off by something like this but many fantasy readers don't mind or even like to see some powerful supernatural events if they don't make victory too easy. And in stories where they like the rest, many of them aren't even bothered by that too much as examples like Harry Potter show.
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- #32
