Learning Through Critiques

[Chessie]

There's no need for tempers to flare over a matter of opinion. If you're participating in a crit group that's enhancing your learning then that's awesome. We can all agree that not every cookie cutter fits the dough or whatever. I thought this would be an interesting discussion to have and yes, people are going to agree or disagree and that's normal but we shouldn't take any of this personally. If anything, we can learn from the experiences of others so next time we give feedback on a piece for another writer or are looking for a crit group to join we can make these choices from a wiser place. That's the only reason why I posted this.

 

[skip.knox]

@Chesterama, I'm very sorry to hear that one or more of your crit partners were deliberately cruel. That's inexcusable. It's rough enough to be critiqued when it's done in good spirit. But you got back at them in the best way there is: you are still writing!

Your comment about cookie cutters is one of the points I was making. It's just plain silly to warm people away from critique groups. Join. Try. Leave if it's not for you. Moderate advice rarely makes for catchy headlines, though, eh?

I only wish there were a way to organize one or more critique groups from the Presently Assembled. This is an excellent community. The Showcase has its merits, but the length limit is, well, limiting. Necessarily so. I understand. Just wishin'.

 

[Svrtnsse]

These don't strike me as a Mastermind Group. They strike me more as a substitute for a writing class.

And that's fine, if that's what it is. But I think it's better to see that, to acknowledge that, and to embrace that, if that's what you need. Read up on writing techniques, do some exercises, focus on improving the basics, and ask people if you're getting it right, like you would in a class.

I think this is probably closer to the truth in my case.

When I started out here I'd never really had anything I'd written read by anyone at all. It got a bit rough at the start as my expectations of people's opinions of my writing didn't match reality. If my main purpose had been to get praise for my amazing skills as a writer, I probably wouldn't have stuck around.

I did learn a lot though. I got tons of great feedback. Most of it well meaning (all that I can remember actually, and that's what matters), and most of it helpful in one way or another. I wouldn't have been the writer I am today if it weren't for that, and it's something I'm happy and grateful for. I'm quite proud of the writer I am and how far I've come (as you can probably tell).
I've never taken any writing classes, or read any books on writing, but thanks to this place and it's community I'm now able to pass on my knowledge to others as a member of the article team.

I believe that getting and giving feedback is important, and that if it's done in the right way it can be tremendously helpful.
That doesn't mean it can't also be harmful, if approached in the wrong way.

---

Regarding the article linked...

I don't think it's as much about crits as it's about the format of the feedback. If you're getting bad feedback in a bad environment, then that's probably not going to be very good for you. The article doesn't seem to say that feedback as such is bad, but rather that the format of the writer's workshop crit group as described in the article is bad.
The way it's presented it makes total sense that it's not good way of getting feedback. I wouldn't want to end up in such a group.

From what I'm reading in this thread though, not all groups are like that.

It's still a fair warning. If you're a new writer and just starting out you might think that getting into a workshop is a great idea. If you get into a good one it may very well be. You could also end up in a bad one, and then the important thing is to try and discover that, so you can leave it and put it behind you.

Feedback isn't bad. You just have to figure out how to deal with it.

EDIT: Not saying figuring it out is easy.

 

[Penpilot]

Jesus... It's also kind of hard to hear that the opinions of peer amateur authors are so universally reviled. I've learned a lot from the issues pointed out to me in critique, and I've spend hours reading and critting other people's work... Yeah, I thought I was being helpful, but apparently not. I'll swear off it for now, I guess.

I don't think peer amateur opinions are universally reviled. As mentioned, there are good opinions and bad ones.

If you're thoughtful in your critique and try to understand the needs of the author by asking a simple question like "What do you need from me?" More often than not your opinions will be helpful. At the very least they will be respected.

 

[Russ]

And I've watched writing bloggers compete for critiques from each other and then proceed to gleefully tear apart each other's work line by line under the mistaken impression that they know what they are doing and are being helpful. It was one of my wake up calls. But quite honestly the personal experience of any of us here amounts to nothing.

Whether you like what DWS has to say or not you cannot deny that he has been in the publishing business, as author, editor and also publisher, for decades. Dean's experience over the years is probably way more than even the combines experience of every single person on this website. He and his wife personally know and hear from hundreds of authors all the time. So maybe you should think twice before you shrug off his observations. If you don't at least try to learn from the advice of someone like Dean who has real in-the-trenches experience as a career midlist author then you should probably reexamine yourself.

Actually people's personal experiences here can add a great deal of value, educate, inspire and guide others.

 

[Mythopoet]

Actually people's personal experiences here can add a great deal of value, educate, inspire and guide others.

If you're guided by the personal experience of some random individual you know nothing about from the internet, then well, you're probably a lost cause.

I said what I did because I don't know any of you. None of you know me. A very few of us here use our real names, most of us don't. Even those whose real names we know are small fish in a very big ocean and I still have no way of knowing whether anything they say is true or accurate or not. Every thing said here may be very interesting, but it doesn't provide any actual data. You shouldn't be educated by anecdotes from random strangers. At best, what's said here should lead you to question your assumptions and look for reliable data somewhere.

I find it befuddling that anyone would think that anecdotes from internet strangers would be more reliable than the conclusions drawn from years of experience from a very public individual. I don't always agree with what Dean says and I often disagree with the way he says it, but I always give his years of varied experience the credit they are due. He knows a heck of a lot more about publishing than anyone on this website.

 

[Russ]

I know nothing about Dean and make no comment about him.

But it strikes me odd that one would want to participate in a community on one hand and suggest that the opinions and experiences of all of its members have no value on the other.

 

[Chessie]

Damn, I'm out of thanks to give.

Mytho, I'm with you on not agreeing with everything Dean says (although I like the way he says it because of his directness) but his viewpoints are always interesting. They make me think, whether or not I agree with him. Like, for example, I disagree with him on pricing somewhat but hey, idk crap because I only have one book up for sale and he has 200.

I do think feedback from readers is what's important to me at this stage in the game and that's going to be different for everyone here. Some will prefer feedback from their peers, others will prefer feedback from their family, and so on. The only person who has read anything of mine in my family is my husband and he pulled sneak mo on that shizzle. His response was one of surprise (I think he thought my work would suck or something lol).

And just to clarify, I do value feedback given to me by my peers who have gone out of their way to give me their opinions. Maybe some of this also has to do with asking for what we need. I tell my readers now: don't critique my grammar, my style, or nitpick my sentences. DO tell me if the pacing is slow or too fast, do tell me if you get a clear picture of the world, do tell me if the characters have goals that are easy to determine as a reader, or if you'd buy this piece, if you wouldn't, and etc.

Many time, we just put our work out there in a workshop or crit group because we "trust" other writers when really, other writers are also readers. They may not be the target audience for our work but yet here we are, asking for them to tell us what's wrong with our piece. It's a matter of common sense and new writers oftentimes don't have that gut instinct honed yet as to who would be the proper person(s) to ask for feedback. Fantasy genre alone has so many subgenres. I detest urban fantasy and would probably not understand or even try to give someone good feedback on their script because it annoys me. But a script with swords and dragons and medieval knights would probably get 5 stars from me because that's what I love. So just things to think about that even within this genre, there are many differences and target readers.

As a final note, it's imperative that our manuscripts get read by someone other than ourselves when they get sent out to an agent, editor, or Amazon.

 

[Chessie]

I know nothing about Dean and make no comment about him.

But it strikes me odd that one would want to participate in a community on one hand and suggest that the opinions and experiences of all of its members have no value on the other.

I hope it's not me you're referencing to because I'll cry lol. I love this community and try to be helpful to the members here.

 

[Mythopoet]

I know nothing about Dean and make no comment about him.

But it strikes me odd that one would want to participate in a community on one hand and suggest that the opinions and experiences of all of its members have no value on the other.

I never meant to suggest that there is no value in anything anyone says here. I admit that my original statement to that effect was worded poorly. But I was speaking in context, not making a general statement. I should have been more precise. But you should also not assume that my statements on a particular subject are an example of my general worldview.

 

[Russ]

I hope it's not me you're referencing to because I'll cry lol. I love this community and try to be helpful to the members here.

My apologies, I should have quoted MP in my response.

I was referring to MP's suggestion that the experiences of those in this community mean nothing.

 

[Russ]

I never meant to suggest that there is no value in anything anyone says here. I admit that my original statement to that effect was worded poorly. But I was speaking in context, not making a general statement. I should have been more precise. But you should also not assume that my statements on a particular subject are an example of my general worldview.

I am glad you took a moment to clarify that.

But I am happy to go a step further. I think that the experiences of everybody on this site on the issue of the value of critique groups has value and are not automatically worthless because they don't coincide with Dean's.

 

[Mythopoet]

I am glad you took a moment to clarify that.

But I am happy to go a step further. I think that the experiences of everybody on this site on the issue of the value of critique groups has value and are not automatically worthless because they don't coincide with Dean.

Good for you. I never said opinions are worthless if they don't coincide with Dean. Never so much as suggested it. And certainly don't believe it.

 

[Russ]

Good for you. I never said opinions are worthless if they don't coincide with Dean. Never so much as suggested it. And certainly don't believe it.

Really?

I've watched writing bloggers compete for critiques from each other and then proceed to gleefully tear apart each other's work line by line under the mistaken impression that they know what they are doing and are being helpful. It was one of my wake up calls. But quite honestly the personal experience of any of us here amounts to nothing.

Perhaps you draw some distinction between "amounts to nothing" and "worthless" that I have missed.

Or was there some other reason you thought that the personal experiences of everyone in the community on this subject amount to nothing that you did not articulate.

 

[Mythopoet]

Russ, you continue to insist to make generalizations out of my remarks. I was making the point that anecdotes do not equal data. Especially anecdotes of strangers. I have already said that I should have chosen my word better so PLEASE stop making ridiculous assumptions about what I think based on that post.

 

[Russ]

Russ, you continue to insist to make generalizations out of my remarks. I was making the point that anecdotes do not equal data. Especially anecdotes of strangers. I have already said that I should have chosen my word better so PLEASE stop making ridiculous assumptions about what I think based on that post.

What you said was very clear. People can read it for themselves. Perhaps you should clarify it. But don't be surprised when people react negatively to you suggesting their personal experiences amount to nothing on a particular topic.

 

[Mythopoet]

What you said was very clear. People can read it for themselves. Perhaps you should clarify it. But don't be surprised when people react negatively to you suggesting their personal experiences amount to nothing on a particular topic.

So even though I have said that I should have been more precise you're going to insist to characterize me by the exact words of my post? You aren't very interested in giving other people the benefit of the doubt are you?

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Devor locked the last thread. That doesn't mean you two can continue the argument here, in another.

I'll advise you each to let this drop until the moderation team can deal with this ongoing feud.

 

[Mythopoet]

Devor locked the last thread. That doesn't mean you two can continue the argument here, in another.

I'll advise you each to let this drop until the moderation team can deal with this ongoing feud.

I posted my last post in this thread before I saw Devor's post in the other. For what it's worth, I certainly have never had any intention of having a feud with anyone.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Thank you for letting me know.

For now, please let the argument be.