Thought I'd pass this article along for those who are interested:
Omnivoracious: Making Magic Work (in Books)
Omnivoracious: Making Magic Work (in Books)
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Making magic work in books
- Thread starter Steerpike
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Anders Ämting
Auror
Alright, so running my current fantasy project through this gets me:
-Magic is Inherent
-Magic is Public
-Magic is learned in School or in Apprenticeships or Alone
-Magic is based on Willpower and Higher Understanding
-Magic is Free
-Magic is Limited
I'm not sure about the rare/common bit, though - I think the article is too vauge on it.
In my story, mages are basically the nobility while non-mages are the commoners. So, the non-mages do outnumber the mages by orders of magnitude. But on the other hand, the mages still constitutes an entire social class and running into one isn't that unusual.
So, at what point does magic stop being rare? How many mages do you need for it to be common? 5% of the population? 10%? (That doesn't sound like much, but that would still make it as common as left-handedness.)
Are we talking rare as in "people with red hair are rare" or rare as in "people with albinism are rare"?
Heh. Well, that's an interesting way to put it.
-Magic is Inherent
-Magic is Public
-Magic is learned in School or in Apprenticeships or Alone
-Magic is based on Willpower and Higher Understanding
-Magic is Free
-Magic is Limited
I'm not sure about the rare/common bit, though - I think the article is too vauge on it.
In my story, mages are basically the nobility while non-mages are the commoners. So, the non-mages do outnumber the mages by orders of magnitude. But on the other hand, the mages still constitutes an entire social class and running into one isn't that unusual.
So, at what point does magic stop being rare? How many mages do you need for it to be common? 5% of the population? 10%? (That doesn't sound like much, but that would still make it as common as left-handedness.)
Are we talking rare as in "people with red hair are rare" or rare as in "people with albinism are rare"?
Heh. Well, that's an interesting way to put it.
Amanita
Maester
Well, nothing really new to me, but that might be because I'm hanging around in fantasy-writing forums for quite a while now. 
For some reason, this kind of thing has never been much help for me. But I still keep looking at them to see if there's something new on its way.
Something other than have limits, make magic have a cost, think about the way magic is interacting with the society and so on.
I've never read a book where magic too powerful really interefered with the plot. In stories with a high amount of magic such as Harry Potter, the bad guys have magic too and therefore the problems stay the same. If this is the case, I don't see any reason for too many "limits" or "prices".
Most of the time, limits are inherent to the magic system anyway. Someone with firemagic can throw the often-discussed fire balls at their enemies but they can't raise the dead, look into the future and teleport to where ever they want. And they can't control water, air and earth either...
If the magic does destroy suspense, this should become obvious to the writer at some point anyway.
That's why after reading this kind of thing I'm as far as before with making sense of my own magic system. If I only decided what is really true about their gifts and what is just there for tradition and cultural reasons I'd have plenty of my work done in this aspect. Magic in my world has quite a few things in common with gender roles in the real world...
Asking the forum won't really help either I'm afraid.
For some reason, this kind of thing has never been much help for me. But I still keep looking at them to see if there's something new on its way.
Something other than have limits, make magic have a cost, think about the way magic is interacting with the society and so on.
I've never read a book where magic too powerful really interefered with the plot. In stories with a high amount of magic such as Harry Potter, the bad guys have magic too and therefore the problems stay the same. If this is the case, I don't see any reason for too many "limits" or "prices".
Most of the time, limits are inherent to the magic system anyway. Someone with firemagic can throw the often-discussed fire balls at their enemies but they can't raise the dead, look into the future and teleport to where ever they want.
And they can't control water, air and earth either...If the magic does destroy suspense, this should become obvious to the writer at some point anyway.
That's why after reading this kind of thing I'm as far as before with making sense of my own magic system. If I only decided what is really true about their gifts and what is just there for tradition and cultural reasons I'd have plenty of my work done in this aspect. Magic in my world has quite a few things in common with gender roles in the real world...
Asking the forum won't really help either I'm afraid.
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Androxine Vortex
Archmage
Lots of people often say that overpowered magic will ruin a story. I think that is only because we are thinking in terms only some of the characters have this extreme power. This is how magic works in my world:
Magic is a direct gift from the Gods. In order to harness and channel magic, you have to pray to your patron God and if He wills it, then he will bless you. Armies march with priests at their sides and while they are fighting, the priests are chanting and performing rituals to bless and heal their allies, or to curse and harm enemies. They will be able to summon bolts of lightning, erupt flames as hot as lava from their hands, and much more. Those who prove themselves to be of value to the Gods are blessed with great gifts of power.
I wanted to make the "champions" of each God be very powerful because they would have the full blessing. They will have strength seemingly unending and be able to call upon powers beyond imagining. In one part of my story a very powerful general takes his blessed warhammer and smashes through a fortress wall. So imagine an army with all of these incredible gifts and powers but fighting another army with these same feats. Some warriors/sorcerers are so great that they are able to summon angels to fight alongside them.
There is also unholy magic which is a form of magic that is used by demons. These dark powers are long forgotten and have been locked away for thousands of years. My MC becomes a servant to the demons, harnessing dark magic when he soon discovers a way to use magic without invocations or rituals. He finds a way to harness magic without divine assistance.
Magic is a direct gift from the Gods. In order to harness and channel magic, you have to pray to your patron God and if He wills it, then he will bless you. Armies march with priests at their sides and while they are fighting, the priests are chanting and performing rituals to bless and heal their allies, or to curse and harm enemies. They will be able to summon bolts of lightning, erupt flames as hot as lava from their hands, and much more. Those who prove themselves to be of value to the Gods are blessed with great gifts of power.
I wanted to make the "champions" of each God be very powerful because they would have the full blessing. They will have strength seemingly unending and be able to call upon powers beyond imagining. In one part of my story a very powerful general takes his blessed warhammer and smashes through a fortress wall. So imagine an army with all of these incredible gifts and powers but fighting another army with these same feats. Some warriors/sorcerers are so great that they are able to summon angels to fight alongside them.
There is also unholy magic which is a form of magic that is used by demons. These dark powers are long forgotten and have been locked away for thousands of years. My MC becomes a servant to the demons, harnessing dark magic when he soon discovers a way to use magic without invocations or rituals. He finds a way to harness magic without divine assistance.
Saigonnus
Auror
I use most of those aspects in my world as well. Basically, magic users tap into the energy that is naturally occurring in the world and can either use it outright (like using heat for a fireball) or use one characteristic of the energy to affect other "spells". For example, a druid can take the natural energies found in water and use it to slow an enemies movement. It is free for those that know how to use it, but not everyone has the ability to use it. Generally races or cultures that are more "in-tune" with the nature have a higher likelihood of being able to use it, while those that are more apathetic to the world around them are less likely.
My magical system is limited in that way and limited only by imagination of the user, if they can imagine something, they can make it happen with enough practice and experimentation. Since most druids for example are more nature oriented, their scope of envisioning things tends to be restricted to those types of things; summoning creatures that live nearby, moving trees, grasses that grow and constrict an enemies movement and the like. Other races are more versatile, able to use the energy they get as weapons or to summon the spirits of the dead, see far off places.
My magical system is limited in that way and limited only by imagination of the user, if they can imagine something, they can make it happen with enough practice and experimentation. Since most druids for example are more nature oriented, their scope of envisioning things tends to be restricted to those types of things; summoning creatures that live nearby, moving trees, grasses that grow and constrict an enemies movement and the like. Other races are more versatile, able to use the energy they get as weapons or to summon the spirits of the dead, see far off places.
Queshire
Istar
Ha~~~ Something like that doesn't really work for my setting, there magic is when something happens but you don't know HOW it works. Some magic can be explained with the scientific magic, but the only explanation for quite a bit is that it's simply Magic, looking into it too much tends to lead to madness.
That said, going by that article;
-Some magic is inherant, others learned.
-Whether magic is common or rare depends on the magic and the world, some magic is more common on some worlds then others, all magic is pretty rare on Earth
-Public on most worlds, secret on Earth
-Depends on the magic.
-Again, depends on the magic, generally the greater the cost the more powerful the magic
-Again, depends on the magic, generally the more limited the magic, the more powerful it is.
That said, going by that article;
-Some magic is inherant, others learned.
-Whether magic is common or rare depends on the magic and the world, some magic is more common on some worlds then others, all magic is pretty rare on Earth
-Public on most worlds, secret on Earth
-Depends on the magic.
-Again, depends on the magic, generally the greater the cost the more powerful the magic
-Again, depends on the magic, generally the more limited the magic, the more powerful it is.
Myth WeaverWith my worlds...
inherit...though there are rare 'bolt of lightning' type deals (metamorphically speaking) that can bestow magical talent on a normal person.
Rare...something on the order of about one person in a thousand has the potential to learn how to cast spells. Magical talent does 'breed true' - sort of, some of the time, though.
Public...and there are probably three or four fraudulent wizards for every real one.
All of the above.
Neither is entirely correct, but 'Willpower and Higher Understanding' fairly close.
It has a price. Overall (with many exceptions for mere dabblers and other special cases) magic is a step on the road to higher enlightenment. They tend to assign less and less importance to things like temporal power and wealth the more a wizard or spellcasting priest studies and grows in power. Matters metaphysical become of ever greater importance even to 'evil' wizards.('Wizards of Earthsea' probably comes closest here).
Limited.
inherit...though there are rare 'bolt of lightning' type deals (metamorphically speaking) that can bestow magical talent on a normal person.
Rare...something on the order of about one person in a thousand has the potential to learn how to cast spells. Magical talent does 'breed true' - sort of, some of the time, though.
Public...and there are probably three or four fraudulent wizards for every real one.
All of the above.
Neither is entirely correct, but 'Willpower and Higher Understanding' fairly close.
It has a price. Overall (with many exceptions for mere dabblers and other special cases) magic is a step on the road to higher enlightenment. They tend to assign less and less importance to things like temporal power and wealth the more a wizard or spellcasting priest studies and grows in power. Matters metaphysical become of ever greater importance even to 'evil' wizards.('Wizards of Earthsea' probably comes closest here).
Limited.
With my Magic System:
1- Magic is Inherent, but little Mages have to learn how to control and use their powers correctly.
2- Magic is Rare, even though there are tens of thousands of Mages.
3- Magic is Public, the entire world knows about the Mages!!
4- Little Mages must learn how to really control their powers, from their mothers and sisters.
5- Magic is based on kicking reality in the (beep!).
6- Magic is free of prices of any kind.
7- Magic is very close to limitless.
This thread is fun!! XD!
1- Magic is Inherent, but little Mages have to learn how to control and use their powers correctly.
2- Magic is Rare, even though there are tens of thousands of Mages.
3- Magic is Public, the entire world knows about the Mages!!
4- Little Mages must learn how to really control their powers, from their mothers and sisters.
5- Magic is based on kicking reality in the (beep!).
6- Magic is free of prices of any kind.
7- Magic is very close to limitless.
This thread is fun!! XD!
Anders Ämting
Auror
Sounds pretty powerful. How much effort does it take to master ones magic? I mean, is it difficult to get good at it?
@Anders: Most of the little Mages already have a decent control over their powers at seven years old, but only at thirteen they truly master all their powers and especially the Weapons =)
With Magic from my Joan of England series:
1- Magic is Inherent, it's part of the souls of Mage girls but they need training.
2- Magic is Rare, only over a thousand girls have been recruited from different parts of England and Scotland.
3- Magic is Secret, only the UK Government has some knowledge about what's going on and what they can do.
4- There is a school of Magic, but it's not really a school: it's more like a secret military research and training center.
5- Magic is based on kicking reality in the (beep!).
6- Magic is free of prices of any kind.
7- Magic is very close to limitless, but they are still exploring its potential and the unknown parts of it.
With Magic from my Joan of England series:
1- Magic is Inherent, it's part of the souls of Mage girls but they need training.
2- Magic is Rare, only over a thousand girls have been recruited from different parts of England and Scotland.
3- Magic is Secret, only the UK Government has some knowledge about what's going on and what they can do.
4- There is a school of Magic, but it's not really a school: it's more like a secret military research and training center.
5- Magic is based on kicking reality in the (beep!).
6- Magic is free of prices of any kind.
7- Magic is very close to limitless, but they are still exploring its potential and the unknown parts of it.
Anders Ämting
Auror
I'll be honest, that's a pretty young age to be warping the fabric of reality through sheer force of will. What do they do if any of these teenaged master mages get out of line? Lord knows people that age aren't widely known for their excellent judgement.
That's not what I meant, though. What I asked was: How much effort does it take? Is it actually difficult to learn this? Are there mage drop-outs who just got sick of it or lacked the talent, or does every single person born with these powers turn out a full-fledged mage?
Well, their teenagers are not at all like human teenagers (it's a different species) they think and behave in other ways, that part is a little difficult to explain... about how much effort it takes for Mages in training to master all the powers, some parts of their Magic are more complicated to learn than others:
Flying is very easy (even high speed flying) little reality warping tricks are easy too but other things are way more difficult, especially the use of their shields, the magical weapons and combat training and skills. A few of them are more talented and more powerful than others, but they all have full powers after all =)
It's part of their souls, it's what they are.
Flying is very easy (even high speed flying) little reality warping tricks are easy too but other things are way more difficult, especially the use of their shields, the magical weapons and combat training and skills. A few of them are more talented and more powerful than others, but they all have full powers after all =)
It's part of their souls, it's what they are.
Anders Ämting
Auror
Still, you say they require at least some instruction. What if a mage doesn't have a teacher? Say, an orphan raised by ordinary people.
@Anders: That has never happened, but in that case the orphan Mage would grow to be more destructive than usual, her reality warping tricks would be more unstable and she would take longer to master all of her powers... what about your Mages??
kadenaz
Scribe
Magic is what you need to make some parts of your novel work. It's first a novel, and then it's a fantasy. So magic needs to LOOK central, but in reality it's just a shortcut for the author, so it has to be created after all
SageSince everyone is having fun with these questions I'll join in with my worlds.
[Swyrtr]
1 - There is some kind of magic talent, but without training it would not get you very far. An trained magican without talent would do better than an untrained "natural".
2 - Since magic has just destroyed that world it's effects can be seen about everywhere. Only few magicans are left. In the town where I do most of writing there are two and they are the only ones in a wide ambit.
3 - It's very obvious that there is magic.
4 - It used to be learned at schools, but nowadays a potential apprentice is lucky to find a teacher at all.
5 - Mainly willpower and higher understanding. The appliance might look like spellcasting.
6 - Free, but dangerous and prone to side effects.
7 - In theory limitless but high energy magic is very dangerous and extremely prone to uncontrollable side effects.
[Kanturia]
1 - Some people have just the knack to talk to spirits, but basically everyone can.
2 - Rare. Forbidden or strictly controlled in most parts of the world.
3 - It is public knowledge that there is magic. Most magic users keep it a secret that they are.
4 - Everything is possible.
5 - Magic is based in the knowledge of the spiritual world. Working magic means convincing and controlling spirits and daemons.
6 - Spiritual beings always want something in return. The stronger they are the less interest do they have in helping a small human. Even a mediocre daemon wants human lives and blood in return for it's services.
7 - A higher daemon might do just about anything. Luckily they are not interested much in the world of humans.
[Swyrtr]
1 - There is some kind of magic talent, but without training it would not get you very far. An trained magican without talent would do better than an untrained "natural".
2 - Since magic has just destroyed that world it's effects can be seen about everywhere. Only few magicans are left. In the town where I do most of writing there are two and they are the only ones in a wide ambit.
3 - It's very obvious that there is magic.
4 - It used to be learned at schools, but nowadays a potential apprentice is lucky to find a teacher at all.
5 - Mainly willpower and higher understanding. The appliance might look like spellcasting.
6 - Free, but dangerous and prone to side effects.
7 - In theory limitless but high energy magic is very dangerous and extremely prone to uncontrollable side effects.
[Kanturia]
1 - Some people have just the knack to talk to spirits, but basically everyone can.
2 - Rare. Forbidden or strictly controlled in most parts of the world.
3 - It is public knowledge that there is magic. Most magic users keep it a secret that they are.
4 - Everything is possible.
5 - Magic is based in the knowledge of the spiritual world. Working magic means convincing and controlling spirits and daemons.
6 - Spiritual beings always want something in return. The stronger they are the less interest do they have in helping a small human. Even a mediocre daemon wants human lives and blood in return for it's services.
7 - A higher daemon might do just about anything. Luckily they are not interested much in the world of humans.
@Hans: so you too, like me, have two different magic systems for different stories?? That's great!! Both of your Magics seem very interesting and powerful =)
Anders Ämting
Auror
Interesting.
Well, like I said, the mages are basically the nobility. Or rather, being capable of using magic makes you nobility - should a commoner be born with magic powers, he or she has the right to be married into a noble family, which will of course raise his or her own family's status by proxy. The nobles in turn find this beneficial because it adds new blood to the aristocracy gene pool. Magic is hereditary and most arranged marriages are made with the intent of producing more magically potent offspring.
Notably, "magic" in this setting is basically psychic powers - telekinesis, telepathy, astral projection, various aura-related powers, etc. Which form of magic you are good at varies between individuals - some are really good at telekinesis, others are good at telepathy, etc. Some are specialized on one aspect, others are more balanced.
Magic will normally manifest on its own at a young age, but in order to master it the mage will need training in the form of meditation, mental focusing techniques and plain old excercise - this magic sorta follows the "sound mind in sound body" principle, so the better shape your body is in the better you are at using magic. For the same reason, your magic will wane if you just laze around your palace and eat cakes all day, or if you are weakened by disease.
Most technology in this world is made to improve magic or produce specific magical effects, including manipulating dimensional boundaries. A very common practice among the nobles is to summon warriors from other worlds and form contracts with them. The warrior becomes a kind of bodyguard called a vassal, and part of the mage's magic is diverted to the vassal to form his or her special powers. On one hand this makes the mage weaker, but vassals are also a sign of status - having multiple vassals means you have a lot of magic to spare. The one currently in the lead when the story starts is the crown prince of the kingdom, having four very powerful vassals while still remaining a fairly potent mage.
Queshire
Istar
@Anders: Reading your description I can't help but think of the Japanese series of light novels/anime Zero No Tsukaima - Television Tropes & Idioms In it Mages are nobility and summon familiars, one of which is from another world. It's pretty different from what you're suggesting, and I'm pretty sure only otaku like myself would recognize any similiarites, but I suggest checking it out if you're lacking in inspiration.
Anders Ämting
Auror
You know, I actually knew about Zero no Tsukaima before I came up with my idea, but the similarities still only occured to me way later. What makes this extra weird is that ZnT is like the only JC Staff anime I haven't seen. I'm a huge fan of To Aru Majutsu no Index and Shakugan no Shana, I loved Toradora and, heck, I even gave Okami-san a shot. I don't even know anyone else who've seen Okami-san. But for some reason I decided to pass on Zero no Tsukaima. oO
Now I'm not sure I should stay clear of it to avoid uneccessary influence, or see it just to make sure I didn't unintentionally rip off something major. >_<
Anyway, if I was inspired by any anime, it was actually Fate/Stay Night - the vassals are kinda like Heroic Spirits, except in reverse.
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