Most hated fantasy cliches: What do you think?

[Mythopoet]

For me it went south the moment he started making Richard OP and everyone else turned into idiots. I still went through it all, but I needed to take a break after reading The Naked Empire. That one and Pillars of Creation made my brain a mush. But the sixth book, Faith of the Fallen was my favourite. I never continued reading the Richard and Kahlan series as the writer obviously suffered a lobotomy (to be mild about it) with his writing.

Wow, Faith of the Fallen was your favorite? I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that. For me that was the book that broke the camel's back. It was too preachy and the plot just really started getting ridiculous. It was the last book I read and I've never looked back.

 

[Graylorne]

I read both Sword of Truth and Wheel of Time when I was down with a hernia. Ten of each. I think it helped me to move about again, rather than being forced to finishing those series.

 

[Panda]

I don't remember when I stopped reading Sword of Truth; I think it was either the third or fourth book. I got too annoyed with how much of his work was obviously ripped off of other works. TV Tropes says the later books were strongly influenced by Ayn Rand, so I suppose it's just as well that I stopped when I did.

 

[Mythopoet]

I don't remember when I stopped reading Sword of Truth; I think it was either the third or fourth book. I got too annoyed with how much of his work was obviously ripped off of other works. TV Tropes says the later books were strongly influenced by Ayn Rand, so I suppose it's just as well that I stopped when I did.

lol yeah

HEY PANDA, DID YOU KNOW THAT COMMUNISM IS BAD???? Terry Goodkind just wants to make sure you're 110% clear on that fact.

 

[Reilith]

He does get too preachy, but somehow that one book really resonated with me. Everything after that though... A bunch of religious and political banter in subtext, too much of everything etc. But I really wanted to finish them just to see how he ended it all. Even the end was half-assed. Throughout the books he keeps talking how evil people get no excuse and no remorse, and should be killed without any sort guilt and then he makes Richard do the stupidest thing in history to fix the problem. And pulling problem-solvers out of his posterior...

 

[cupiscent]

Maybe cliche is unavoidable and not necessarily bad, but I will note that the "grace" I say before starting a new book has been the same for the past twenty years: "Oh please give me something different and interesting." And what I mostly mean is "please don't contain any standard variations of the things on that list".

Don't get me wrong, I love fantasy. I love books that gave rise to and perpetuated the cliches. But I remember Game of Thrones blasting through my same-old predictable fantasy funk like an icy breath of novelty, and if I could feel that surprised and energised every single time I read a book, I would be 100% fine with that. (After all, if I want the same-old chosen-one with a mentor and a magic sword, I can just go back and re-read David Eddings for the 64th time.)

Of course, yes, cliche is in the execution, not the content. I mean, I hate dragons, but I loved what Seraphina did with them. (Similarly, vampires are boring, but the BBC television series Ultraviolet was fantastic.) But I don't think it's bad at all to encourage writers to think about what they can bring to the genre that's unique to them. We all have amazing individual viewpoints. Let's share them.

 

[Guy]

There was one I was totally on board with:

"I'll tell you what, I always cringe when people put random apostrophes in proper names."
"If I pick up a fantasy book, and I can't pronounce the names in the blurb without getting a headache, it's back on the shelf for that book. Meh."

Names and words that don't conform to any known rules of phonetics annoy the daylights out of me. Most of the others kind of left me scratching my head. If you hate mythical creatures, fantasy seems like a peculiar genre to go for. Sort of like those guys who join the navy and can't swim.

I can't help suspecting that the people whining simplistic political structures in stories are the same ones griping about all the trade federation crap in the Star Wars prequels.

I got a laugh out of this one: "... has anyone ever written a fantasy about an anarchic society that wasn't about cave men?"
Uh... maybe because that's about as far as an anarchic society is likely to advance?

And just what does "bildungsroman" mean, anyway?

 

[Ireth]

A "bildungsroman", as far as I know, is a fancy word for a coming-of-age story. No idea where the word originated, though.

 

[Svrtnsse]

A "bildungsroman", as far as I know, is a fancy word for a coming-of-age story. No idea where the word originated, though.

It's most likely German. I have a hunch "bildung" is somehow related to eductaion (or possibly character-building).

 

[ThinkerX]

I had a long point by point response all typed out - but it got eaten because it was too long. So...short version:

Some of the points I agree with. Others are debatable.

 

[Jabrosky]

If you hate mythical creatures, fantasy seems like a peculiar genre to go for.

In fairness, I wouldn't say fantasy needs creatures from any established mythology. I myself am more fond of prehistoric beasts, or creatures inspired by such. The way I see it, any kind of fiction, and any kind of setting, could be sorted into the fantasy genre as long as it's somehow significantly different from the world we know. Ergo, a story about African warrior chicks fighting dinosaurs in the jungle would just as easily qualify as fantasy as the old dragons-and-elves stuff.

If anything, sometimes I wonder if the inherent flexibility of fantasy as a genre is why it's so often perceived as excessively saturated with cliches. People expect a lot more diversity within fantasy's broad parameters than they actually see.

 

[Fyle]

When the low-born nobody type turns out to be incredibly important or have a claim to the throne (or equvilent). It was great the first few times I heard it, but now... its chiche. Seems like a pattern that many of my all time favirotes have followed.

Matrix - Neo starts as just this programmer in his 1 room apartment.

LOTR - Aragorn / Strider is a mysterious ranger at first.

Star Wars - farm boy becomes a Jedi who faces off against the emperor and Vader.

Would I be wrong to say Katniss in the Hunger Games? Starts off as just a pledge to enter, and ends up the star of the show talking to important people on all levels.

I am sure the list goes on...

Seems like it has been done over and over before.

 

[Ireth]

I think Katniss would be a unique case. There's no prophecy around her like Neo, and she's not the child of anyone super important, whether for good or evil, like Luke or Aragorn. Katniss is just an ordinary girl who did something extraordinary, volunteering as a Tribute in the Games, and that is what made people pay attention to her. She gets where she's going by her own merit, not because of law or magic or prophecy.

*Disclaimer: I haven't read the Hunger Games books and have only seen the first movie. My knowledge of the plot is probably woefully incomplete.

 

[cupiscent]

If you hate mythical creatures, fantasy seems like a peculiar genre to go for.

I don't read for person vs beast, or even good vs evil. I read for person vs person and person vs system. Endless pages of monster-splatting has no real emotional meaning for me. But fantasy gives the biggest and best pvp or pvs storylines.

 

[X Equestris]

It's most likely German. I have a hunch "bildung" is somehow related to eductaion (or possibly character-building).

Yeah, it translates as novel of education/formation/culture. It's apparently a specific subset of a coming-of-age story.

 

[Jabrosky]

When the low-born nobody type turns out to be incredibly important or have a claim to the throne (or equvilent). It was great the first few times I heard it, but now... its chiche. Seems like a pattern that many of my all time favirotes have followed.

Matrix - Neo starts as just this programmer in his 1 room apartment.

LOTR - Aragorn / Strider is a mysterious ranger at first.

Star Wars - farm boy becomes a Jedi who faces off against the emperor and Vader.

Would I be wrong to say Katniss in the Hunger Games? Starts off as just a pledge to enter, and ends up the star of the show talking to important people on all levels.

I am sure the list goes on...

Seems like it has been done over and over before.

I blame most of those on the American Dream Syndrome. You could say it's the bastard child of our country's democratic pretensions and the longstanding problem of socioeconomic inequality we would prefer to sweep under the rug. We tell ourselves and our children that, as long as we take the most advantage we can out of our own talents, we all have a chance to become these billionaire celebrities with sexy significant others, nice comfy mansions, and publicity shoved into the faces of hapless grocery shoppers all over the nation. In a small number of cases, you don't even need to do much with your life other than irritate the rest of humanity and yet somehow make money off them.

If you see a lot of farmboys discovering they're descended from royalty and have special powers, it's probably due to this deeply ingrained American desire to climb to the top of the pyramid.

 

[Mythopoet]

When the low-born nobody type turns out to be incredibly important or have a claim to the throne (or equvilent). It was great the first few times I heard it, but now... its chiche. Seems like a pattern that many of my all time favirotes have followed.

Matrix - Neo starts as just this programmer in his 1 room apartment.

LOTR - Aragorn / Strider is a mysterious ranger at first.

Star Wars - farm boy becomes a Jedi who faces off against the emperor and Vader.

Thing is, there's a HUGE difference in the way each of those examples are played out. They aren't really the same trope.

Neo is "The One" for no reason at all. It's just random chance. And his powers just appear when he needs them at the climax.

Aragorn on the other hand only appears low-born, but it's quickly indicated in the narrative that he's more than he appears. He has, in fact, been high born the whole time and a very important personage, but just how important isn't revealed to the reader all at once. But you know by the end of Fellowship that his heritage makes him the only rightful king of Gondor.

Luke is the classic hero's journey example and not really a "chosen one" at all. He has inherited ability, he can learn to become a Jedi because his father was, but he earns his hero status through his own actions before he ever learns to properly wield the force.

And this is one reason I object to the whole "this trope has been done" idea. Because whenever examples are given, it's easy to demonstrate how very differently played out most of the examples are, and not really the same thing done over and over at all. Are there some people who write books that basically reuse old ideas without adding anything fresh? Sure. But that doesn't negate the value of the idea, just the value of those particular implementations of it.

I blame most of those on the American Dream Syndrome. You could say it's the bastard child of our country's democratic pretensions and the longstanding problem of socioeconomic inequality we would prefer to sweep under the rug. We tell ourselves and our children that, as long as we take the most advantage we can out of our own talents, we all have a chance to become these billionaire celebrities with sexy significant others, nice comfy mansions, and publicity shoved into the faces of hapless grocery shoppers all over the nation. In a small number of cases, you don't even need to do much with your life other than irritate the rest of humanity and yet somehow make money off them.

If you see a lot of farmboys discovering they're descended from royalty and have special powers, it's probably due to this deeply ingrained American desire to climb to the top of the pyramid.

This trope is as old at least as ancient Greek myth so no, it's not because of the American Dream. Though it could be argued that what America has done is take the "Chosen One" and remove the "chosen". We seem to prefer our heroes to just be ridiculously awesome and just have super cool powers without any real rhyme or reason. We don't need no stinking chooser! We make ourselves the chosen one!

 

[Mindfire]

This trope is as old at least as ancient Greek myth so no, it's not because of the American Dream. Though it could be argued that what America has done is take the "Chosen One" and remove the "chosen". We seem to prefer our heroes to just be ridiculously awesome and just have super cool powers without any real rhyme or reason. We don't need no stinking chooser! We make ourselves the chosen one!

I don't think that's even specific to America. I think it's just modern thinking in general.

 

[Russ]

I found the list entertaining and would agree with about half of them.

It was fun to read, but don't suspect it was meant to be taken overly seriously.

It does stand as a good warning though if you are going to write something cliche, you have to step up a notch higher.

The first complaint I was 100% with. Give me China Mieville over Tolkien-lite anyday.

 

[Incanus]

So assassins and thieves aren't cliche yet? Curious. Seems like every other book on the fantasy bookshelves these days are about assassins. Maybe we need to wait another decade or so for that one.

On the other hand, none of the newer writers I've been reading use 'flowery' prose that I've seen. Yeah, not a great list--one cliche I can't find being used, and a over-used occupation that isn't mentioned. Shrug.