Need help addressing a couple of comments

[BWFoster78]

Warning, this first one is a little bit risque (PG-13 at the absolute worst though).

From The Power of the Mages Chapter 28.3:

He shrugged off her baffling change in demeanor. “Ashley, I’m not doing this because of some kind of power struggle between you and me. I won’t sign that statement.”

Raising her hand to her neck, she held it less than an inch from her skin. She traced the contour of her body down to her thigh, emphasizing the swell of her breasts and the curve of her waist. “Isn’t this everything you wanted? Sign and you’ll have all of me, the parts I’ve reserved for only the man I’m to marry, the parts every man I’ve met has lusted after since I flowered.”

A wave of heat washed over Xan. “Of course that’s what I want.” Then what he’d implied registered. “I mean, not what you said.” He felt the flush rising on his face. “I mean, not that I don’t want…”

She turned her head to the side and raised a hand to her mouth. A bark of laughter escaped.

“You don’t fight fair,” he said.

“I fight to win.”

“I don’t want to fight at all.”

She smiled. “Then sign the agreement.”

Overall, I like this passage a lot. However, I got feedback from my writing group that the paragraph starting with the word "Raising" is trite, cliched, pretty much laughable. Any thoughts on how to fix it?

From The Power of the Mages Chapter 29.2:

His mouth snapped into a thin line.

“That’s what I thought.” She opened her fist.

The gold band strangled the air from him, and the glittering diamond mocked him with tiny fire-like rays. She wound her hand behind her head, preparing to throw the ring. At the last second, she let it slip from her grasp as if she couldn’t even muster enough emotion to hate him. A metallic clang sounded, echoing off the walls, each clink battering him.

She turned from him, her quiet voice wavering. “I’m going back to the wall. There are men dying there, men who need me.”

He watched until the heavy door cut her from his sight.

“I need you,” he said quietly as the soldiers once again secured the door. “I have no one else.”

The question involves the paragraph starting with "the gold band." I like it, but my group doesn't because the ring can't actually strangle him and the clinks can't batter him. Apparently, the ring can mock him, though.

They're really literal, which I am most of the time. I like the symbolism/metaphor here. Does this bother you?

Thanks so much in advance for the opinions!

 

[Ireth]

I don't think the word "raising" is trite at all. If she's elevating her hand from a lowered position to her neck, then "raising" is what she's doing. If you want an alternative, "lifting" would also work.

 

[BWFoster78]

Ireth,

They think the whole paragraph is trite, not the word.

Thanks for the quick response, though. I accidentally clicked submit and didn't even get finished editing before you posted. You win the fast fingers award!

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I think I understand what they're getting at. The whole tracing the body from breasts to waist maneuver might be considered trite. It's what cat-calling men have been motioning in the air for decades, if not centuries. Because of that it may seem a bit played. Personally, I don't have any issue with what you've written but if you want to move away from a reader potentially thinking its trite then there's plenty of options.

You could have her disrobe. You could have her open the front of a robe, you could have her slip out of her clothes just moments before rounding a corner into a changing room. - basically you could have her show her body to him. By the dialect where she is baiting him & acknowledging that men have been lusting after her for awhile, this doesn't seem too far of a stretch for that character.

If for some reason, you don't want any verbal nudity, she could have simply chosen a very alluring outfit that day. Maybe it's a dress that doesn't require those well known hand motions.... The low neckline, bare back, and long slits running up the side of each leg do all the physical work for her. She just has to offer with her words.

 

[BWFoster78]

I think I understand what they're getting at. The whole tracing the body from breasts to waist maneuver might be considered trite. It's what cat-calling men have been motioning in the air for decades, if not centuries. Because of that it may seem a bit played. Personally, I don't have any issue with what you've written but if you want to move away from a reader potentially thinking its trite then there's plenty of options.

You could have her disrobe. You could have her open the front of a robe, you could have her slip out of her clothes just moments before rounding a corner into a changing room. - basically you could have her show her body to him. By the dialect where she is baiting him & acknowledging that men have been lusting after her for awhile, this doesn't seem too far of a stretch for that character.

If for some reason, you don't want any verbal nudity, she could have simply chosen a very alluring outfit that day. Maybe it's a dress that doesn't require those well known hand motions.... The low neckline, bare back, and long slits running up the side of each leg do all the physical work for her. She just has to offer with her words.

I don't know. The actual nudity seems to take things a bit far, but maybe not. The group suggested that I have her place his hand on her breast.

Just want to get some opinions.

Thanks for the response!

 

[Steerpike]

The only thing that stood out to me in the first paragraph was "flowered." That seemed a bit much to me, though it is hard to tell based on a short excerpt. Immersed in the larger work, it might fit, but as it is that particular word makes me take this less seriously.

I like the ideas in your second example just fine, and I think your group is being way too literal. If one insists on a literal interpretation of every word, then one could hardly read any literature at all without many, many objections. I get what you are going for with "strangled," but I'm not sure I like that word in particular. But the rest of it, and the general idea of what you're trying to do here, is perfectly good writing in my view.

 

[Ireth]

Ohh, I see. Clearly I misunderstood. Thanks for the award! ^^

Looking at the whole thing, I still don't see what's "trite" about it. It's straightforward and clear, which is good. The one thing that bothers me, possibly just from a lack of more context to the scene, is why Ashley's willing to give her virginity to Xan in spite of an obvious desire to wait until marriage -- I'm assuming that Xan is not the one she means to marry, since the "agreement" sounds more like a sex-related business contract than a marriage certificate. To be honest, it make me think of a recent review I read of "Fifty Shades of Grey", which referenced a part in the book where the female lead must sign a contract written by her boyfriend before they can have sex. The BDSM prevalent in Fifty Shades gets under my skin a bit, even just hearing about it.

As for the second paragraph, I don't really like "the gold band strangled" either. It's confusing; at first I thought she was pulling on a necklace of some kind that was literally choking him. "She wound her hand behind her head" is a little confusing as well -- does it mean she's moving her hand back to throw the ring, or perhaps closing her hand into a fist? I don't mind so much that the clinks batter him, though. And I loved the last paragraph, very punchy and emotional.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Doesn't have to be nudity.

Point being, there's loads of little ways a woman can put her sexuality out there.... The hourglass figure hand motion might be you thinking like a man. What would a woman, who knows she's hot, really do? My guess is that she won't refer to her body the way a stereotyped construction worker would.

Also, you didn't ask them what they meant by trite? Always make sure they give reasoning or a critique statement.

As far as the second example goes, I agree with them. It reads funny to me. If you want to show his reaction to her giving him the ring back, do so in a way that is clear. Mentioning that he saw the ring and then his words or breath caught in his throat is probably better than writing "the band strangled" or "the diamond mocked". The ring can't take any action against him but it can certainly have an effect. Don't confuse that by making the ring into an actor in the sentence.

 

[JonSnow]

You could cut out the first two sentences, and add the "neck" part to the third. "She traced the contour of her body from neck to thigh...." Gives the same imagery, without needing the first two sentences. The only thing those first two sentences added was her finger to her neck... now that is just part of the rest of the action.

I have no problem with a woman doing this finger-tracing thing...using her sexuality to manipulate men. That type of interaction is as old as mankind itself. It could be that she is mocking the men who only think with the head between their legs, if you take my meaning.

 

[Ankari]

It all depends on the worldliness of your character. If she is a bit naive about what draws a man's attention, then I would keep this in the book. From this paragraph, that is how I picture Ashley (btw, for some reason I've always loved this name).

Now, if she is a woman who knows what drives the juices in men, I would rewrite it. I'll try a quick example of the direction I would suggest:

"She lowered her head, staring from beneath glistening lashes with smoldering eyes. An inviting smile curled in wicked delight as she slowly moved before him. Blood throbbed the rhythm of desire in his ear, carrying with it burning need through his body. His breath caught in his throat so that his chest would not touch hers. Her breath joined the throbbing in his ears, calling for him with a primal song. A soft hand hovered over his neck, cruelly taunting his body to yield into her touch.

'Isn’t this everything you wanted? Sign and you’ll have all of me, the parts I’ve reserved for only the man I’m to marry, the parts every man I’ve met has lusted after.' She breathed the words in his ears, her lips igniting sparks when the contacted his ears.

“Of course that’s what I want.” Then what he’d implied registered. “I mean, not what you said.” He felt the flush rising on his face. “I mean, not that I don’t want…”

Yielding lips pressed against his neck. They remained for a time, long enough to deliver their promise.

“You don’t fight fair,” he said.

“I fight to win.”

“I don’t want to fight at all.”

She smiled. “Then sign the agreement.”

 

[Lorna]

I think the main problem with the first paragraph is it tells us nothing about what Ashley looks like and doesn't describe much of Xan's reaction. I'm guessing she's been described earlier on though?

Raising her hand to her neck, she held it less than an inch from her skin.

So far there's nothing sexual at all here. The movement seems robotic. 'Less than an inch.' That's a mathematical way of looking at it. 'Raising her hand to her neck, Ashley's fingers hovered tantalising close to her (tanned / pale) skin. Xan's pulse rose.'

She traced the contour of her body down to her thigh, emphasizing the swell of her breasts and the curve of her waist.

I don't think a woman would do this. Not unless Ashley's very young and naive. You might be better with leaving this out and showing how Ashley's small gesture touching her neck has affected Xan. 'Unable to prevent his gaze dropping lower, glimpsing her cleavage and imagining the shape of her breasts, fighting against his desire Xan looked away.'

“Isn’t this everything you wanted? Sign and you’ll have all of me,

This is fine.

the parts I’ve reserved for only the man I’m to marry, the parts every man I’ve met has lusted after since I flowered.”

Apologies, really disliked this. I can't see any woman as referring to her body as 'parts' reserved for a future husband. I was also put off by the term 'flowered.' I think the first to sentences are fine and this can be removed

The gold band strangled the air from him,

I was confused on a first hearing. I didn't realise it was a ring. I thought 'has he been attacked by a magical golden band?' (!). I'm not sure if a ring can strangle the air from someone. Although the oppression of a relationship can, which is what I think you're trying to put across.

What about something like 'the golden band on his ring finger seemed to constrict, strangling the life from him.'

and the glittering diamond mocked him with tiny fire-like rays.

This is great, really liked it.

A metallic clang sounded, echoing off the walls, each clink battering him.

The metallic clang and the clink worked- onomatopeia. I'm not against the clink affecting the character but I don't think a clink would 'batter.' When I think of battering I think of wood or stone. How about 'each clink ringing through him / each clink chipping into him' like... find a metaphor for a how his wife pulling the ring off his finger makes him feel.

 

[BWFoster78]

Ohh, I see. Clearly I misunderstood. Thanks for the award! ^^

Looking at the whole thing, I still don't see what's "trite" about it. It's straightforward and clear, which is good. The one thing that bothers me, possibly just from a lack of more context to the scene, is why Ashley's willing to give her virginity to Xan in spite of an obvious desire to wait until marriage -- I'm assuming that Xan is not the one she means to marry, since the "agreement" sounds more like a sex-related business contract than a marriage certificate. To be honest, it make me think of a recent review I read of "Fifty Shades of Grey", which referenced a part in the book where the female lead must sign a contract written by her boyfriend before they can have sex. The BDSM prevalent in Fifty Shades gets under my skin a bit, even just hearing about it.

As for the second paragraph, I don't really like "the gold band strangled" either. It's confusing; at first I thought she was pulling on a necklace of some kind that was literally choking him. "She wound her hand behind her head" is a little confusing as well -- does it mean she's moving her hand back to throw the ring, or perhaps closing her hand into a fist? I don't mind so much that the clinks batter him, though. And I loved the last paragraph, very punchy and emotional.

Ireth,

Xan and Ashley are engaged at this point. I understand that intrepreting it is difficult without the full context. She's trying to get him to do something and is threatening to break off the engagement if he doesn't comply.

I think the context takes care of the first bit of confusion. We see him getting the ring to her earlier in the scene, and, I think, the reader will be primed for it to make an appearance. Do you think it still would have been confusing if you had known to expect the ring?

Maybe I need to better illustrate the throwing motion; that is what I'm going for.

 

[BWFoster78]

It all depends on the worldliness of your character. If she is a bit naive about what draws a man's attention, then I would keep this in the book. From this paragraph, that is how I picture Ashley (btw, for some reason I've always loved this name).

Now, if she is a woman who knows what drives the juices in men, I would rewrite it. I'll try a quick example of the direction I would suggest:

Still not exactly what I'm going for. I'm not sure what exactly that is, but I'm hoping I'll know it when I see it.

She definitely knows why men are attracted to her, and she uses it to her advantage. Your version, however, makes her too much the vamp. I guess I need a little more innocent but still provocative. It's hard to find that balance.

 

[Ireth]

Ireth,

Xan and Ashley are engaged at this point. I understand that intrepreting it is difficult without the full context. She's trying to get him to do something and is threatening to break off the engagement if he doesn't comply.

I think the context takes care of the first bit of confusion. We see him getting the ring to her earlier in the scene, and, I think, the reader will be primed for it to make an appearance. Do you think it still would have been confusing if you had known to expect the ring?

Maybe I need to better illustrate the throwing motion; that is what I'm going for.

Knowing that they're engaged definitely makes it much less confusing. I guess I should have picked it up earlier, what with the significance of the ring and all. ^^; I still take a bit of issue with her referring to Xan as "the man I'm going to marry," which is vague and unclear. Though I suppose given the uncertain question of whether or not he'll sign/she'll break the engagement, it does make sense.

 

[BWFoster78]

I'm guessing she's been described earlier on though?

Yes.

So far there's nothing sexual at all here. The movement seems robotic. 'Less than an inch.' That's a mathematical way of looking at it. 'Raising her hand to her neck, Ashley's fingers hovered tantalising close to her (tanned / pale) skin. Xan's pulse rose.'

Good point.

In your suggestion, you show Xan's reaction. I'd prefer for Ashley's actions to speak for themselves without having to filter it through Xan.

Apologies, really disliked this. I can't see any woman as referring to her body as 'parts' reserved for a future husband. I was also put off by the term 'flowered.' I think the first to sentences are fine and this can be removed

Ashley considers her body a bargaining chip, and her marriage will be for power, not love. Does this help with you seeing the phrasing? Nobody seems to like "flowered," though I'm pretty sure I stole the phrasing from Jordan. I'll change it.

I was confused on a first hearing. I didn't realise it was a ring. I thought 'has he been attacked by a magical golden band?' (!). I'm not sure if a ring can strangle the air from someone. Although the oppression of a relationship can, which is what I think you're trying to put across.

What about something like 'the golden band on his ring finger seemed to constrict, strangling the life from him.'

There are two separate issues here.

1) The confusion about it being a ring. I think that it's obvious from the rest of the scene. I'll consider it more deeply though.

2) Some don't like that a ring can't literally strangle someone. It's metaphorical, and I like the imagery. However, Steerpike seems to be the only one who likes it. Since the two of us don't agree terribly much from a style standpoint, maybe I should reconsider.

Thanks again for the reply!

 

[JonSnow]

Yes.



Good point.

In your suggestion, you show Xan's reaction. I'd prefer for Ashley's actions to speak for themselves without having to filter it through Xan.



Ashley considers her body a bargaining chip, and her marriage will be for power, not love. Does this help with you seeing the phrasing? Nobody seems to like "flowered," though I'm pretty sure I stole the phrasing from Jordan. I'll change it.



There are two separate issues here.

1) The confusion about it being a ring. I think that it's obvious from the rest of the scene. I'll consider it more deeply though.

2) Some don't like that a ring can't literally strangle someone. It's metaphorical, and I like the imagery. However, Steerpike seems to be the only one who likes it. Since the two of us don't agree terribly much from a style standpoint, maybe I should reconsider.

Thanks again for the reply!

I liked the whole sequence, actually. Some of the wording can be cleaned up. I have no issues with the metaphors. There's no problem with "flowered", either. Its common in medieval and/or fantasy literature. You could use "since I got my blood", or "moon blood", or many variations if you felt the need to change it... nobody has the patent on any of those female cycle terms.

 

[ShortHair]

Re: first passage

Women don't have to be so obvious. She'll know instinctively how to get her message across. It might be a turn of the head and a veiled look. It might be a few words in a husky voice. It might be a subtle shift in posture. He'll feel that "wave of heat" without knowing what hit him.


Re: second passage

Nothing wrong with metaphor. What's bothering people here, I think, is the variety of effects. The ring strangles him, mocks him, and batters him, all in one paragraph. Pick one and stick with it.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I still think the main problem comes from you writing her like a man. Maybe that's the intention? Maybe she's kind of tomboyish & knows she's sexy but a bit awkward with it? If so, then you're not far off & some little tweaks will help.

However, if you want her to be more womanly I'd advise asking some women in your life how they'd see her trying to leverage sex to get what she wants. It's not an uncommon thing for a woman, in some stage of her life, to tease with sexuality.

I ask my wife, sister, sister-in-law, stuff like this all the time.

 

[JonSnow]

From reading this, I got the impression that this woman has no intention of being subtle... she knows exactly what she is doing, by controlling men with sex (or dangling the promise of sex in front of them). It is certainly a more aggressive approach than you would think most women would take, and it would actually turn off some men (myself included). I'm not sure how BWFoster intended on portraying her. But if she has the more overt, aggressive type personality, it would fit. There are certain types of men who would continue to chase her, even given the methods she is using.

 

[BWFoster78]

I liked the whole sequence, actually. Some of the wording can be cleaned up. I have no issues with the metaphors. There's no problem with "flowered", either. Its common in medieval and/or fantasy literature. You could use "since I got my blood", or "moon blood", or many variations if you felt the need to change it... nobody has the patent on any of those female cycle terms.

I know. I was confused with all the negative reaction to "flowered." It seems pretty standard to the stuff I've read.