Need help with an excerpt

[BWFoster78]

This is an excerpt from Chapter 12 of Power of the Mages:

“Dylan, you’ve been to Asherton. Have you heard anything about Ashley? The townspeople gossip about her, right?” Xan sipped his drink.

“Not a lot. There was a big blowup a year or so ago about her fiancé.”

The comment hit Xan like a kick in the gut. He inhaled sharply and erupted in a fit of coughing. Tea flowed from his nose. Lainey stifled a laugh by putting a hand over her mouth.

Brant slapped Xan on the back. “Are you okay? What happened?”

Xan gathered himself and wiped away the tears caused by the liquid going down the wrong pipe. “I’m fine. Just swallowed wrong.” He gawked at Dylan. “What were you saying about a fiancé?” His breath caught as he waited for the response.

Dylan settled back to tell the story. “Lady Ashley negotiated the marriage via courier. Apparently, when she saw the guy, thrice her age and four times her weight, she threw a fit, made the duke cancel the wedding for all that it had been her idea. There was a big stink. Duke Asher had to pay reparations.”

Xan exhaled in relief. Though he certainly should have, he had never considered that Ashley might be wed or promised to someone. Nobles often arranged marriages for political gain. Farmers and the like tended almost to sell their daughters, but the artisan class, more so with each generation, were more prone to give scions a choice.

“Glad my dad won’t try to tell me who to marry. I can choose for myself just fine.” Brant grinned. “Deciding is the fun part.”

Xan stared into the fire’s glowing orange embers. “I don’t know. Not having to court a girl makes things easier.”

Lainey flipped the bear steaks. “I agree with Brant. I don’t want someone else to pick my husband.”

“You’re a girl,” Brant said. “You don’t have a say.”

She rolled her eyes. “Boys are so clueless. What about you Dylan? Which side are you on?”

The subtext here is that Xan really likes Ashley. When Dylan talks about her fiance, he reacts in what I hope is a mildly humorous manner. This exchange introduces Dylan's feeling on the subject of love, which becomes an the basis of a subplot later in the book.

Two questions:

1. The lesser one first - Does the humor come through? Any advice on enhancing it would be helpful.

2. Because of a beta reader's comment, I added the really telly section about how each of the three classes of people handle marriage. Firstly, does the small section of exposition distract too much? Second, I put it in there because the beta reader felt that, without it, how marriage is handled is really murky. I can kinda see his point but kinda not. On one hand, the characters go back and forth and it's not clear what the rules are. On the other, it seems like I'm bordering on overexplaining by adding this. What think you? Should I keep the explanation or get rid of it?

Thanks!

Brian

 

[Zero Angel]

My thoughts:

The humor is humorous in an obvious hit you over the head with it way, but is a reasonable reaction when drinking and being told alarming news so I don't have a problem with it. Why did you tell us the way Lainey stifled her laugh? Not sure about Brant's character, but is he laughing at Xan when he slaps him on the back or is he being sincere?

For the telling, it's out of place. I can understand leaving in the bit about the nobles, and even maybe adding something about surprise over the wedding being cancelled from her wishes, but I don't see the point of including the farmers and the artisans. You're also using "certainly" to describe "should have" here, is that necessary?

Actually, trying to think how I think you think, shouldn't you change the whole sentence to, "He should have considered that Ashley might be wed..."?

Also, although Brant tells Lainey that she doesn't have a say because she's a girl, clearly Ashley had a say. The only surprise conveyed over that seems to be that the Duke had to pay reparations.

 

[BWFoster78]

Why did you tell us the way Lainey stifled her laugh? Not sure about Brant's character, but is he laughing at Xan when he slaps him on the back or is he being sincere?

This excerpt takes place well into the story. Since you haven't read the lead up, I do not expect you to understand these issues. Presumably, they'll have more relevance for those who read all the book to this point.

I take from this that the humor is okay but not LOL. I can live with that; it's just a slight break in tension as the surrounding chapters represent a pretty constant build up.

For the telling, it's out of place. I can understand leaving in the bit about the nobles, and even maybe adding something about surprise over the wedding being cancelled from her wishes, but I don't see the point of including the farmers and the artisans.

Whether it's necessary or not is a question of world building. Some would think that details like this add a lot to the story. Others would be more like, "Meh." Did you feel that it distracted (which is quite separate from, imo, from whether it was needed)?

Actually, trying to think how I think you think, shouldn't you change the whole sentence to, "He should have considered that Ashley might be wed..."?

I think that you think that I think...

Also, although Brant tells Lainey that she doesn't have a say because she's a girl, clearly Ashley had a say. The only surprise conveyed over that seems to be that the Duke had to pay reparations.

See, that's the problem when you start to explain; you have to explain everything. The subtext is a commentary on gender roles, but these differ from commoners to nobles. Ashley, as the duke's daughter, breaking commonly held conventions occassions little comment from them; they're used to nobles making up the rules as they go along. Brant feels that regular girls sit around waiting to be asked whereas Lainey knows they have more control over the process than the boys, though in a more subtle manner.

Having explained the first point, should I now add another explanation for this?

Egads! Where does it end?

I tend to think that you should:

1. Though what happens at the reader.
2. Understand the ramifications of the actions but not explain them
3. Be consistent with the ramifications

For example, I don't feel I need to explain about the nobles breaking rules. I am, however, implying with this section that the commoners don't think twice about it. If I show later on that the commoners do get up in arms about such a social breach, then I've done a bad thing.

Some would say that I should, in fact, explain all this. I just don't see what it adds if it never becomes relevant to the story.

 

[Zero Angel]

Whether it's necessary or not is a question of world building. Some would think that details like this add a lot to the story. Others would be more like, "Meh." Did you feel that it distracted (which is quite separate from, imo, from whether it was needed)?

I thought it was very distracting past the first bit about the nobles which was relevant. I had to read it twice to make sure I didn't skip it. If it had been a book I picked up off the shelf, I would have skipped the paragraph after that point.

I'm sure you've made it clear throughout the book how the characters interact and also how they think about nobles, so no problems there then.

Going back to the humor and your first question. The humor is slightly derailed by our concern for Xan, especially after being "kicked in the gut" figuratively speaking. Having him squeak out an "I'm fine" before coughing and resuming his normal tone of voice might add to the humor as well.

 

[ThinkerX]

My suggestion on the 'telling' part. The bit about the nobles arranged marriages goes with Dylans story about Lady Ashley. Something along the lines of:

'walking out on a marriage contract like that used to be be grounds for war. What was she thinking? She can't pick and choose, not an aristocrat.'

The bit about the artisans marriages goes with Brants little speech about 'choosing is the fun part.' Just insert a short blurb along the lines of 'well, at least we working folk arn't tied up in marriage contracts like the nobles'.

I'm not sure of Lainey's status (though I vaguely remember her as an outdoor type). Her contribution, if from the farming class, would be something like 'I don't want to be sold to some hairy brute for a few cows like my cousin was last year.'

 

[Penpilot]

First, the intent and the reasons behind the humor are spot on, but what's not working for me is the presentation. The way the prose is working, I don't feel the humor. I think it's because there's too much of a delay between the dialogue about the blow up and fiance and the spitting of the tea, and it's slowing things down. So the timing is off, and the window for the joke is over by the time we get the visuals. I think maybe you don't need the first sentence The comment hit Xan like a kick in the gut. I'm willing to put this up to not having read the whole section, but I'm confident of what I'm seeing.

As for the info about the marriage customs. The initial bit of it is fine but then as it goes on. It feels too long. Can't some of this information be dropped in earlier in the story? This is chapter 12, so there must be opportunity in the earlier chapters to mention in an offhanded manner something about artisan marriage practices in one spot, then farmers in another, and so on. If the information is trickled out earlier, then it relieves the presser to have it be dropped into here in one big chunk.

 

[Jamber]

Hi BWFoster78,

I feel that the marriage exposition is close to the way most people would understand an arranged marriage system anyway (i.e. it can vary by class; it often has a financial purpose; some sections of the community allow more choice than others). If you feel a need for the exposition you could always take the important point about class variation and stick it in the ensuing dialogue. Just personally, I wouldn't.

The excerpt worked for me, in general. I didn't feel there was any clumsiness with the humour; it wasn't pushed too hard. A girl covers her mouth to hide laughter when a boy spits tea—it's light and human.

I'm not your readership, as I'm probably too old, but aside from wondering whether Xan's relief is because Ashley was promised or because she refused (I would have assumed the latter, but the paragraph expressing his relief doesn't clinch that), I feel it's working well. Keep writing!

best wishes
Jamber

 

[BWFoster78]

All the suggestions about how to better incorporate the exposition are helpful.

Should I assume that you all feel it was needed? If that paragraph were removed completely, would you feel you needed to know more about how arranged marriages work and who does and does not utilize them?

Thanks!

 

[Penpilot]

It's hard to tell if it's needed from a short excerp, but if something is not explained, imop, the reader will just insert what is common in our world in its place. The sky in a story will always be blue until you state otherwise.

 

[BWFoster78]

It's hard to tell if it's needed from a short excerp, but if something is not explained, imop, the reader will just insert what is common in our world in its place. The sky in a story will always be blue until you state otherwise.

I think that, in determining what to do in such a situation, two questions come to mind:

1. Is the information critical to the reader understanding the story? In this case, it's a clear, "No." It's not a huge part of a plot line. Nothing crucial hinges on it.

2. Will the lack of providing additional info distract the reader? This one is harder for me to determine. If you remove the paragraph in question, the way arranged marriages work in my world can be misconstrued. I think that you have to read a lot into the story to make a determination either way, and I'm not sure that the vast, vast majority of readers will make any kind of leap here.

The conversation, without the explanation, boils down to: This particular female noble arranged a marriage herself and pulled out of it. Artisan class characters discuss the merits of arranged marriage with none of them actually being subjected to the process. Females are said to have little to no say in the courting process.

From the conversation, I get: Arranged marriages are common but not everyone uses them. There is a question as to how much say most females have in the process.

 

[Penpilot]

From the conversation, I get: Arranged marriages are common but not everyone uses them. There is a question as to how much say most females have in the process.

You can answer the question about how much say females have by just tweaking the dialogue a little . If you'll excuse me stepping into you kitchen for moment.

The original

“Lady Ashley negotiated the marriage via courier. Apparently, when she saw the guy, thrice her age and four times her weight, she threw a fit, made the duke cancel the wedding for all that it had been her idea. There was a big stink. Duke Asher had to pay reparations.”

Maybe try something like this. It's a little more gossipy and I think it gets you where you need to be within the context of the conversation.

"Not only did Lady Ashley have the gall negotiate her own marriage via courier, which isn't even acceptable with a farmer's daughter let alone a lady of her standing, she threw a fit when she saw the groom was trice her age and four times her weight. She cancelled whole thing. Duke Asher had to pay reparations, and there was a big stink, with people proclaiming 'That's why women aren't allowed to choose their husbands. Nothing is ever good enough for them.'"

 

[BWFoster78]

Penpilot,

I appreciate the suggestion. If I need to add the information, I think that's one way to do it.

On the other hand, I'm just not sure the information is needed. I'm trying to R.U.E.

 

[wordwalker]

On the other hand, I'm just not sure the information is needed. I'm trying to R.U.E.

R.U.E.? Don't think I've heard that one.

 

[BWFoster78]

R.U.E.? Don't think I've heard that one.

Resist the Urge to Explain.

Long time readers of my posts here and on my blog will know that I have a lot of pet peeves. Near the top of the list is over-explaining. If you've given the reader enough information to make a connection, you don't need to actually draw the line between the dots.

A more common form of over-explaining is repetition. A writer doesn't think a reader will get it on the first go around, so he repeats it. I'm reading A Memory of Light, and I'm 600 pages or so in. I'm pretty sure that Sanderson has told me three times already that most of the men fighting with Lan don't have actual Malkeri blood but choose to fight with him anyway. Really dude? A. Is it that important? B. I got it the first time; don't insult my intelligence.

Anyway, please RUE!

 

[Cursive]

I don't think you need the bit explaining marriages for each class. I get that the nobles arrange marriages from the story about Ashley, and I can kinda infer that Xan is not a noble because of how he reacts and doesnt think about her possible marriage agreements. That peasants sell their daughters doesn't seem to be relevant to the story, at least from the excerpt.

About the humor, I thought it was funny. The only think that threw me was the reference to being kicked in the gut coming immediately before an inhale. To me it seemed like opposing imagery. I also thought the immediacy that the joke/scene requires is lost because it takes place over a few short sentences and periods are read as longer pauses then semi colons or comas. It seems like 4 things happen with even pacing, but I think you want it to sound like 4 things happen with the explosive hilarity common to that sort of action.