Orcs: Foundation or Cliche

[FatCat]

Hey all!

This thread is the by product of an interesting conversation on MS chatboard.
The topic of discussion seemed to be, originality in fantasy writing. Despite the title, this is not limited to Orcs specifically, but all the common Fantasy creatures, dragons, trolls, werebeasts, vampires, you get the idea. Why are these so prevalent in Fantasy writing, do you consider these things to be a foundation of the fantasy genre, or a cliche? I attempted to word this vaguely to produce discussion along the topic. So, what are your ideas, are Orcs a fantasy foundation, or a fantasy cliche

Side note- I think world building was the appropriate place to put this, sorry in advance if there was a better forum for this.

 

[Jabrosky]

The main reason we still see orcs, trolls, and the like is either because many writers don't want to bother making up their own creatures, are heavily inspired by Tolkien or his imitators, or feel more comfortable with the familiar. I wouldn't tell any budding writer not to use these creatures at all, but they're definitely not a must-have either.

I have dragons in the short story I've just started, but I only call them dragons because that's a familiar term that can be co-opted to connote any large fictional reptile. Beyond being big and dangerous carnivores they don't have much in common with mythological dragons; if anything their true inspirational roots lie in dinosaurs and other prehistoric reptiles.

 

[Zero Angel]

I'm interested in the topic, but not the debate. Make sense at all?

I like those creatures so of course I want to see more of them. Just like when I play Final Fantasy and I am happy to see chocobos and moogles

 

[Philip Overby]

Fantasy, like sci-fi or other genres, have things that recur. Does this make them bad? No. It just makes them part of the genre.

If I mention orcs, an image comes to your mind. If I mention futariguchi onna, then you probably don't know what that is. My job as a writer is to make both of these creatures interesting, regardless how much or how little you know about them. I could write an awesome story about orcs or I could write an awesome one about futariguchi onna. Or I could write bad ones for both.

Genres have convention. Whether they're cliche or not, people are going to keep writing about them. Your job as a reader and writer is to decide if you want this pattern to continue.

I'm going to end each one of these "cliche" threads with this from now on:

"Cliches are not bad, if your writing is good."

Phil the Drill stamp of approval.

 

[Astner]

Jabrosky is on the right track. We use commonly established fictional creatures not to alienate the reader. That said, the best orcs aren't necessarily the original ones. For instance, the orcs in Warhammer are better illustrated than those in Lord of the Rings.

In the end "orc" is just a label. The creativity should be invested in the idea this label represents, and not the label itself.

 

[Jabrosky]

I will add that I've always had a strange sympathy for orcs in particular and never liked it that they were usually the bad guys. I guess it's the champion of the underdog in me. Honestly, I much prefer the post-Warcraft III trend of giving at least some of them a certain degree of nobility.

 

[FatCat]

Sometimes while reading, if there is one of these elements I can't help but ask, why!? Is the orc/troll/elf/goblin a useful addition to the plot, i.e. using them to further a prevalent idea of the work, or is it simply 'cool'.

The term fantasy brings to my mind a lot of different things, but most among them is the allowance of the author to make new species and races that are tailor made to the plot of his/her fantasy. Someone first decided to invent another race and call them orcs, but the repetition throughout the genre itself is somewhat hard to justify, in my opinion. Example; Is the woods-dwelling, immortal elf culture reflecting your views on humanity, highlighting certain aspects that he/she find in human nature like futility against time, conservation of nature in the industrial world, or just because (and I do agree with the following) elfs are just awesome.

The same goes with vampires; are they added into the work with slight differences for the sake of originality (Sparkles in the sunlight? ) or is the classic idea twisted to create something that you find useful or imperative when telling your story. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the inclusion of these ideas is not a bad thing at all, if the story is compelling ,well, thats all I need. However sometimes I wish I could see the creativity going into the alteration of the classic element being put to use in an original idea, and one that adds to the general theme of the work.

That being said, I think that dragons and the like have stayed around for so long simply because of the fact of their continual adaptations of the same awesome, fire-breathing, fear-inspiring, and anciently wise species are usually really fun to read, no matter the name.

 

[FatCat]

I will add that I've always had a strange sympathy for orcs in particular and never liked it that they were usually the bad guys. I guess it's the champion of the underdog in me. Honestly, I much prefer the post-Warcraft III trend of giving at least some of them a certain degree of nobility.

I'm waiting to read about the refined orc, the kind that enjoys the finer things in life; good wine, intellectual conversation, gourmet cooking.....maybe even a monopoly monocle, just don't mind the crushed and broken bodies of half a generation of adventures behind the antique armoire.

 

[Jabrosky]

That being said, I think that dragons and the like have stayed around for so long simply because of the fact of their continual adaptations of the same awesome, fire-breathing, fear-inspiring, and anciently wise species are usually really fun to read, no matter the name.

I know I've said this before, but the main reason I settled on dragons for my current WIP is because their fictional nature allows you to take more creative liberties with them. Normally I prefer dinosaurs to traditional dragons, but using real dinosaurs in fantasy forces me to make as few paleontologists cry as possible by sticking to scientific accuracy. You can get away with a lot more with dragons than dinosaurs, which probably explains why the former appear so much more often in fantasy to begin with.

 

[Zero Angel]

I include all of those fantasy elements because by and large they exist in mythology and legends.

Whether it is orcs, dragons, trolls, or whatever, they've been part of our collective consciousnesses for longer than we've been alive.

 

[Saigonnus]

Normally I prefer dinosaurs to traditional dragons, but using real dinosaurs in fantasy forces me to make as few paleontologists cry as possible by sticking to scientific accuracy.

I would consider how little we really know with hard facts about dinosaurs; much of those "facts" are simple suppositions that fit what evidence we do have. All it could take is finding another fossil to completely redraw what dinosaurs look like to those paleontologists. I think if; for example, you add feathers to a T-rex, none of those paleontologists could really make any complaints about it since their nearest ancestors are turkeys and it is possible they had feathers even then (there is no evidence one way or another as to what their skin looked like). I think taking literary license even with traditional and well-documented creatures should be encouraged especially with fantasy novels; where an amount of suspension of disbelief is required anyway.

I, for example use a character named violet that is a normal appearing cat (though strangely colored) with human intelligence and "magical" talent. Do you think that would cause an outcry among normal biologists since normal cats don't have magical powers or advanced intelligence? I would think not since it IS a work of fantasy.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I'm waiting to read about the refined orc, the kind that enjoys the finer things in life; good wine, intellectual conversation, gourmet cooking.....maybe even a monopoly monocle, just don't mind the crushed and broken bodies of half a generation of adventures behind the antique armoire.

Some Elder Scrolls orcs are kinda like that - as a people they are from a fairly warlike society due to their religion, but a lot of them still come across as perfectly civilized.

 

[FatCat]

Some Elder Scrolls orcs are kinda like that - as a people they are from a fairly warlike society due to their religion, but a lot of them still come across as perfectly civilized.

I believe I killed the one Orc in Skyrim who was, don't mess with the Dark Brotherhood

 

[Anders Ämting]

I believe I killed the one Orc in Skyrim who was, don't mess with the Dark Brotherhood

I think I met that guy. Couldn't figure out the point of him. It's always a bit dull when you run into characters who obviously only exist for a quest you haven't found. Oh well. The mage college also has an orc librarian, incidentally.

Anyway, there were more of them in Oblivion, since it took place in more civilized parts and in a more civilized time. Back then you'd run into orcs merchants and orc townspeople all the time. (Actually, one of the things I didn't like about Oblivion was how well integrated all the races were. Made the diversity feel kinda pointless, if you know what I mean.)

 

[FatCat]

Yeah, the racial tension of Skyrim made it feel alive, in a sense. Poor khajit, having to sit outside in the cold. Thats what they get for having tails though!

 

[Jabrosky]

Forgive me if this drives us off-topic, but another thing that bothers me about old-school orcs and all the other traditionally evil monster races is that they feed into the perception that evil is visibly ugly and easy to distinguish from good with a superficial glance. In truth, the worst of evil doesn't have tusks, live in spiky castles, wear black robes, or whatever. Truly effective and dangerous evil is the kind that masquerades as good. That kind of evil has a seductive power that can trick even genuinely good people into following it.

 

[Astner]

The Elder Scroll series has always taken a neutral approach to the playable races. So that you can enjoy the setting the same without having to worry about imperials beating you up on the streets just for being an orc.

As for evil? Well it depends on what you mean with evil. It has to be more than being bad just for the sake of being bad. But at the same time I agree with you in that I don't see an orc sitting in a library with his snout in a book.

 

[ShortHair]

I include all of those fantasy elements because by and large they exist in mythology and legends. Whether it is orcs, dragons, trolls, or whatever, they've been part of our collective consciousnesses for longer than we've been alive.

Consider me ninja'd.

I would consider how little we really know with hard facts about dinosaurs; much of those "facts" are simple suppositions that fit what evidence we do have. All it could take is finding another fossil to completely redraw what dinosaurs look like to those paleontologists.

I've toyed for years with writing a story on this topic. Could someone have found dinosaur bones, centuries before the birth of paleontology, and reconstructed them as a dragon? What else would the biblical line "giants in the earth" refer to?

 

[Zero Angel]

Consider me ninja'd.

Thanks for using a word I never looked up before very useful!

I've toyed for years with writing a story on this topic. Could someone have found dinosaur bones, centuries before the birth of paleontology, and reconstructed them as a dragon? What else would the biblical line "giants in the earth" refer to?

I think in real life that dinosaurs and large lizards (komodo, crocodile, etc) are probably where dragons came from, but I think that the quote refers to the nephilim, doesn't it? The giant offspring of humans and angels?

I've got those in my books too...

 

[SeverinR]

Fantasy, like sci-fi or other genres, have things that recur. Does this make them bad? No. It just makes them part of the genre.

If I mention orcs, an image comes to your mind. If I mention futariguchi onna, then you probably don't know what that is. My job as a writer is to make both of these creatures interesting, regardless how much or how little you know about them. I could write an awesome story about orcs or I could write an awesome one about futariguchi onna. Or I could write bad ones for both.

Genres have convention. Whether they're cliche or not, people are going to keep writing about them. Your job as a reader and writer is to decide if you want this pattern to continue.

I'm going to end each one of these "cliche" threads with this from now on:

"Cliches are not bad, if your writing is good."

Phil the Drill stamp of approval.

But, your futariguchi onna will probably not catch on, unless they get an abbr. name.
Orc, Elf, Dwarf, Dragon, short, easy to say, and instantly bring to mind a pictured being.
Futars might catch on, but the tough long named creature probably wouldn't.
But then again, we don't refer to dwarfs as Homosapien-dwarfis either.

I might also point out, cliches aren't cliche if they are different.
What ever you write, make it yours, not WOW, not Tolkiens, Not Bob Godfrey's creation in the 9th grade AD&D club.