Orcs: Foundation or Cliche

[Mindfire]

Anyone else bugged by the title of this thread? It just says "j". Can that be fixed?

 

[FatCat]

Thanks for using a word I never looked up before very useful!


I think in real life that dinosaurs and large lizards (komodo, crocodile, etc) are probably where dragons came from, but I think that the quote refers to the nephilim, doesn't it? The giant offspring of humans and angels?

I've got those in my books too...

I remember watching something on TV about the origins of dragons. The premise was an attempt to explain why so many cultures, separated by thousands of miles, all came up with the same type of mythical beast, before anyone would be able to travel these distances. The explanation was that it had something to do with residual primitive fear of predators, like the scales coming from poisonous snakes, claws from countless predatory mammals, and the wings an association of carrion birds. This was awhile back, but it's an interesting theory.

Also, no idea why the title was changed to 'j', it used to be 'Orcs: Foundation or Cliche? Wasn't me, so it might just be a glitch.

 

[Sheilawisz]

I have restored the Thread's original name, but I have no idea why it had changed...

 

[Zero Angel]

But then again, we don't refer to dwarfs as Homosapien-dwarfis either.

Has anyone had their dwarves be related to humans before? I think of them as wholly distinct families/species/etc.

I might also point out, cliches aren't cliche if they are different.

I agree with you, but I think the vast majority consider anything with the same name as something else to be cliche.

 

[CupofJoe]

Consider me ninja'd.
I've toyed for years with writing a story on this topic. Could someone have found dinosaur bones, centuries before the birth of paleontology, and reconstructed them as a dragon? What else would the biblical line "giants in the earth" refer to?

ShortHair
Not only could they. It has almost certainly happened...
The first two i can think of are
1) The Greek idea of the cyclops has a skull that looks remarkably like a Mammoth's... and
2) Asian images of dragons often have hooked beaks [like eagle] that look remarkably like the skulls of Protoceratops.
Each generation reinterprets the evidence it has to fit its own needs and prejudices...

 

[Mindfire]

I have restored the Thread's original name, but I have no idea why it had changed...

Gremlins.

.

 

[Mindfire]

I remember watching something on TV about the origins of dragons. The premise was an attempt to explain why so many cultures, separated by thousands of miles, all came up with the same type of mythical beast, before anyone would be able to travel these distances. The explanation was that it had something to do with residual primitive fear of predators, like the scales coming from poisonous snakes, claws from countless predatory mammals, and the wings an association of carrion birds. This was awhile back, but it's an interesting theory.

I personally like to think that at some point in time, dragons actually existed. Like direwolves.

 

[Zero Angel]

I personally like to think that at some point in time, dragons actually existed. Like direwolves.

A few years ago Animal Planet or Discovery Channel came out with a special that they presented as though they had actually uncovered evidence of dragons. I was FLIPPING OUT for like the first 40 minutes of the special because they never came out and said that it was fake until at one point they were like, "If someone was to discover this..." and I was like, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING MEEEEEE.

Still, it was pretty cool. The premise was that they uncovered a medieval dragon carcass that had been frozen in some mountain range and plotted its evolution back from prehistory. At one point they show a dragon fight a T-Rex so you know it had to be a good show.

 

[FatCat]

A few years ago Animal Planet or Discovery Channel came out with a special that they presented as though they had actually uncovered evidence of dragons. I was FLIPPING OUT for like the first 40 minutes of the special because they never came out and said that it was fake until at one point they were like, "If someone was to discover this..." and I was like, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING MEEEEEE.

Still, it was pretty cool. The premise was that they uncovered a medieval dragon carcass that had been frozen in some mountain range and plotted its evolution back from prehistory. At one point they show a dragon fight a T-Rex so you know it had to be a good show.

You seriously just made me spit wine out on my keyboard, damnit!!!

 

[Shockley]

I remember watching something on TV about the origins of dragons. The premise was an attempt to explain why so many cultures, separated by thousands of miles, all came up with the same type of mythical beast, before anyone would be able to travel these distances. The explanation was that it had something to do with residual primitive fear of predators, like the scales coming from poisonous snakes, claws from countless predatory mammals, and the wings an association of carrion birds. This was awhile back, but it's an interesting theory.

I would say that it is much more likely that we are interpreting the phenomenon through western eyes. Instead of saying 'Oh, obviously, the lung is its own monster invented by east Asian peoples' we jump to the idea of this as an 'Asian dragon.'

 

[FatCat]

I would say that it is much more likely that we are interpreting the phenomenon through western eyes. Instead of saying 'Oh, obviously, the lung is its own monster invented by east Asian peoples' we jump to the idea of this as an 'Asian dragon.'

I can't say I understand what you're saying here. What I was referring to was not just asian dragons, but dragons across a wide cultural extreme. I'm not sure how asian dragons were specified in this TV series, then again I'm not sure why eastern dragons were specified in your comment.

 

[Jabrosky]

I would say that it is much more likely that we are interpreting the phenomenon through western eyes. Instead of saying 'Oh, obviously, the lung is its own monster invented by east Asian peoples' we jump to the idea of this as an 'Asian dragon.'

I agree completely with this.

Anyway, I've decided to include orcs and goblins in one of my projects, but I plan a big twist for them:

Spoiler: The Twist

They are actually different races of human beings exactly like the hero; he only perceives them to be monstrous and evil because of a delusion the villain imparts onto him using a magic necklace, and they are actually on the sympathetic side.

 

[Shockley]

I can't say I understand what you're saying here. What I was referring to was not just asian dragons, but dragons across a wide cultural extreme. I'm not sure how asian dragons were specified in this TV series, then again I'm not sure why eastern dragons were specified in your comment.

I was using the Asian dragon as an example.

The point I was trying to make is that we have something called a 'dragon.' It is part of our culture, our mythos. Other cultures have their own things, which they call by their own names and give their own purposes. Then, one of our cultural anthropologists (or something similar) shows up and says, 'This is their version of a dragon.'

It's completely inaccurate and unfair to the traditions.

 

[FatCat]

What do eastern peoples call their 'dragons', I assumed they had a similar outlook to these mythical beasts as we did. To my understanding a wide variety of dragons were present to cultures outside the eastern concepts.

 

[Shockley]

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that there are no dragons outside of western culture. Just things we equate with our concept of dragons.

Ask yourself this: What are the similarities between the Asian and Western Dragon? Basically none. They are both vaguely reptilian and that is the end of it. The western dragon is a thing of evil (almost universally), and usually in Christian cultures a representation of the Devil. In Asian communities, it's almost always a positive force - most of the time it is a god worthy of veneration.

Any time you hear someone say 'this culture has a dragon,' it's best to interpret that sentence as 'in my opinion, this is fairly close to the western concept of a dragon and I am going to label it as such, even if it's inaccurate.'

 

[Mindfire]

I would say that it is much more likely that we are interpreting the phenomenon through western eyes. Instead of saying 'Oh, obviously, the lung is its own monster invented by east Asian peoples' we jump to the idea of this as an 'Asian dragon.'

That may be true, but can you say that the reverse is not true? I find it likely that when other cultures look at they western dragon, they might also say, "that's kinda like a different version of our [insert cultural icon here]." You could in fact say that the dragon is the "western lung" just as you could say the lung is the "eastern dragon."

The point is, yes it's a little Eurocentric to say that Creature X is the [insert culture]'s dragon. But if you look at the bigger picture, it is remarkable that so many different cultures independently "invented" such similar beasts, regardless of what they call them. It's not so far-fetched to thing these different beasts might actually be a series of related creatures being interpreted through different cultural lenses.

To clarify my point, a lion depicted in Chinese art looks very little like a lion as depicted in European art. Does this mean the Chinese lion is not really a lion, but instead its own separate thing? No. It's just being viewed through a different cultural and artistic point of view.

 

[Mindfire]

I agree completely with this.

Anyway, I've decided to include orcs and goblins in one of my projects, but I plan a big twist for them:

Spoiler: The Twist

They are actually different races of human beings exactly like the hero; he only perceives them to be monstrous and evil because of a delusion the villain imparts onto him using a magic necklace, and they are actually on the sympathetic side.

I thought your world didn't have magic?

 

[Jabrosky]

I thought your world didn't have magic?

Changed my mind about that.

 

[Mindfire]

Changed my mind about that.

Interesting. Anything in particular cause the switch? Also, how have you managed to integrate the new element?

 

[Zero Angel]

You seriously just made me spit wine out on my keyboard, damnit!!!

Sorry! Was it because you believed it for a second too! That was my reaction then!

I would say that it is much more likely that we are interpreting the phenomenon through western eyes. Instead of saying 'Oh, obviously, the lung is its own monster invented by east Asian peoples' we jump to the idea of this as an 'Asian dragon.'

I think this is silly. That's like saying a leyak isn't a type of vampire or Frankenstein isn't a type of golem. We use English to describe things because we are speaking English. If I was speaking Japanese I would say ryu or tatsu and if I was speaking Chinese, I would say lung. But here's the kicker, if a Chinese person was speaking English, they would probably describe their dragons as dragons. ...because they are dragons.

Then, one of our cultural anthropologists (or something similar) shows up and says, 'This is their version of a dragon.'

I think the point he was trying to make was that a theory for similar creatures across cultures (not just China/Europe, but others also) all have this creature which is a hodgepodge of our biggest predators--cats, raptors, snakes, etc. Now, the anthropologist in question is of course relying on the fact that the traditions couldn't be transmitted across cultures and that we are able to genetically program a speciesism into ourselves that would be expressed artistically or under the influence of drugs/fear into a dragon or dragon-like creature. This unfortunately, since the theory is interesting, results in his argument not having as much scientific merit as it might otherwise.

Inconsequentially, these creatures were believed to have a common ancestor in the Dragon's World DVD I referenced earlier. They had that the land-based dragons died out with the dinosaurs and only the water-based ones lived through it. The water-based ones eventually becoming the Asian dragons.

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that there are no dragons outside of western culture. Just things we equate with our concept of dragons.

OK, so if we equate them with dragons let's just keep using English to describe them then. Right? Since we are speaking English...

Don't get me wrong, I am all for using proper names for things. But if it looks like a dragon, acts like a dragon and for all intents and purposes is a dragon, then it is a dragon. Any Chinese or Japanese experts that know what they call European dragons? I only studied Japanese for two years and never got into geek speak. I just think of this as a specific type of dragon.

Ask yourself this: What are the similarities between the Asian and Western Dragon? Basically none. They are both vaguely reptilian and that is the end of it. The western dragon is a thing of evil (almost universally), and usually in Christian cultures a representation of the Devil. In Asian communities, it's almost always a positive force - most of the time it is a god worthy of veneration.

I don't know that I've ever disagreed with you so much about something Shockley.

They are both reptilian, but definitely more snake and serpent related. Usually related to the water. Related to sea serpents and Leviathan or synonymous depending on your beliefs. Powerful and almost always on the top of whatever hierarchy they are in. Typically able to fly. Probably based on real creatures = snakes, crocodiles, dinosaurs and whales.

I would say that your "almost universally" representation of western dragons is a little extreme, and only applies to ancient dragons.

Any time you hear someone say 'this culture has a dragon,' it's best to interpret that sentence as 'in my opinion, this is fairly close to the western concept of a dragon and I am going to label it as such, even if it's inaccurate.'

Does anyone in our genre actually think of the western concept of a dragon when they think of dragons anymore? I think most people think of a Tolkien / D&D concept if they think of anything. In those, dragons were intelligent but could choose their own leanings. There were good and bad dragons and even if they were portrayed as having European body types more often than not, they were rarely malevolent beasts that lived the lives of hedonists without real dreams and goals.

So now we are back to a different forum's thread. Call it a dragon if you want to. Call it a lung or ryu if you want to. Call it Badsfrlavnoi (just random letters on the keyboard, not a real thing...yet!) if you want to, but they still are going to be the same thing, and that is a dragon.

As far as what I mentioned earlier--a leyak is a type of vampire where its head and spine/organs detaches from the body and seeks to suck the blood from a pregnant woman, while Frankenstein was a golem made out of flesh and bone instead of mud.