Page-Squire---Knight?

[Jess A]

Hello all,

I have a character who is the eldest son of a Duke. A snotty, petulant, selfish boy who is nonetheless one of my novel's protagonists. He becomes Duke when his father is dead.

The Duke sends the boy to his younger brother's rural court to become a page and then a squire. The idea is to make him learn to be humble, instead of sending him to the King's court or another Duke's court where he will be 'further corrupted'. The Earl's castle isn't at all flashy and it's in the 'middle of nowhere' with 'no culture'.

The Earl decides the boy makes a crap squire. He's too lazy, too rude, and frankly hasn't mastered anything he should have. His only saving grace is that he is quite cunning.

What happens if the Earl decides he isn't worthy of my world's equivalent of knighthood? It is a noble order, similar to a knight. Can a boy fail as a squire and what happens then? He almost never got past being a page. The boy will become a successful, rich Duke later in the novel nonetheless, but would he be stripped of his title as Squire? I imagine it would cause him a lot of embarrassment.

Any historical examples or simply any ideas?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Jess A]

And once again this is in the wrong section. Apologies.

 

[Taro]

Okay from what i would think, is if he failed they would strip the title of squire and send him back to whence he came. no nobilty would be lost he would just be a normal duke, i am not sure if they would do anything more that.

 

[Graylorne]

First of all, becoming a knight had nothing to do with entering a Knightly Order. Orders like the Golden Fleece, the Garter, etc were very high level. Orders like the Templars, the Teuronic etc were miltary monks. But a knight (sec) was just that, a military man owning a horse. They grew into a class of lower nobility with a rather rigid code of conduct and the obligation of being a shiny example to the world. A fraternity, I’d say. And it wasn’t at all necessary for a nobleman to become a knight.

Looking at your boy, he would become a page. If he was really worthless, he probably wouldn’t be made a squire at all. After all, a squire was an apprentice knight. Many people (especially those less well endowed) would stay a squire all their life, because knighthood was too expensive.

I think he’d stay a page, then become, well, a hanger-on at his brothers court. It would be something else, if his father sent him to a war zone. That happened. But then he’d have to apply & behave himself and that might not be your intention.

Ofc all information is adaptable to your needs

 

[Jess A]

Okay from what i would think, is if he failed they would strip the title of squire and send him back to whence he came. no nobilty would be lost he would just be a normal duke, i am not sure if they would do anything more that.

Hi Taro, thanks for the reply!

That is my thought. But do you think there would be humiliation involved? Almost every noble and some of the gentry strive to be part of the Order. To have tried and failed would be talked about in the royal court. It might embarrass his old-fashioned father more than him. It is similar to being a knight. For the nobility, it is probably more of an honorary sort of thing than being, say, one of King Arthur's warrior knights. They don't all fight. Some assume commanding positions in the King's or Dukes' armies. It isn't as exclusive as the Order of the Garter for example. However, it would be expected that most higher nobles are part of the Order in my book. This particular character is eventually third-in-line for the throne - until the Crown Prince has children.

On saying that, perhaps the man doesn't care enough. I am just wondering what happened to squires in history who failed to become knights. This is me being too involved in detail. Now I have other ideas about a more exclusive 'Order'. And I rather like that this character has become an embarrassment, now that I think of it. He grows throughout the story, but I want that personal growth to be fraught with personal failures and such. He is ultimately loyal to one of the other protagonists - as long as things go his way.

 

[Jess A]

First of all, becoming a knight had nothing to do with entering a Knightly Order. Orders like the Golden Fleece, the Garter, etc were very high level. Orders like the Templars, the Teuronic etc were miltary monks. But a knight (sec) was just that, a military man owning a horse. They grew into a class of lower nobility with a rather rigid code of conduct and the obligation of being a shiny example to the world. A fraternity, I’d say. And it wasn’t at all necessary for a nobleman to become a knight.

Looking at your boy, he would become a page. If he was really worthless, he probably wouldn’t be made a squire at all. After all, a squire was an apprentice knight. Many people (especially those less well endowed) would stay a squire all their life, because knighthood was too expensive.

I think he’d stay a page, then become, well, a hanger-on at his brothers court. It would be something else, if his father sent him to a war zone. That happened. But then he’d have to apply & behave himself and that might not be your intention.

Ofc all information is adaptable to your needs

Hmm...this presents me with another plot idea althogether. You must have posted whilst I was writing my last reply to Taro. I just realised I was not very clear with my wording, either. The Duke has a younger brother, an Earl. The Duke sends his only son to the Earl's court. The Earl is the boy's uncle.

The boy could indeed remain a page. But he will eventually become Duke as he is his father's only child. This works just as well. It's a very minor detail, depending on what I choose to do with his failures in the Earl's court.

Both work perfectly well in my world. Now I just have to think which serves my plot.

Thank you, Graylorne.

 

[Graylorne]

You can stay a squire all your life, it's just a lower rank, but not a page. I don't think that goes past 15/16 years of age.
Anyhow, in both above cases the boy's a failure, only the second one's a bit more subtle. Were he dismissed, he wouldn't think very kindly of his uncle, I'd say.

Well, I wish you joy with it

 

[Jess A]

You can stay a squire all your life, it's just a lower rank, but not a page. I don't think that goes past 15/16 years of age.
Anyhow, in both above cases the boy's a failure, only the second one's a bit more subtle. Were he dismissed, he wouldn't think very kindly of his uncle, I'd say.

Well, I wish you joy with it

Yes I think boys became squires at 15, 16 - I meant that he would never go beyond a page (would be dismissed altogether) and is simply the Duke's son until he becomes Duke. And no, he wouldn't think kindly of the Earl, but he would be more interested in pursuing his own fortunes. He never wanted to go to the Earl's court in the first place.

Thanks again!

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

My thought would be that your character would not remain a squire for that long. Those that did stay in that position were those with no other options, i.e. broke and from poor families who simply wanted to become a knight. For them the position of squire was an acceptable position. Your boy has options. My thought would be that rather than being left to remain a failure his father would say that if things weren't working out, he would find him other options. Perhaps some time in the church, whatever your world's faith is, or sent away to a university of some sort. In one of these places he would surely find himself, though he would no doubt always hear the whispers behind his back of how he could not become a knight.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Taro]

Hi Taro, thanks for the reply!

That is my thought. But do you think there would be humiliation involved? Almost every noble and some of the gentry strive to be part of the Order. To have tried and failed would be talked about in the royal court. It might embarrass his old-fashioned father more than him. It is similar to being a knight. For the nobility, it is probably more of an honorary sort of thing than being, say, one of King Arthur's warrior knights. They don't all fight. Some assume commanding positions in the King's or Dukes' armies. It isn't as exclusive as the Order of the Garter for example. However, it would be expected that most higher nobles are part of the Order in my book. This particular character is eventually third-in-line for the throne - until the Crown Prince has children.

On saying that, perhaps the man doesn't care enough. I am just wondering what happened to squires in history who failed to become knights. This is me being too involved in detail. Now I have other ideas about a more exclusive 'Order'. And I rather like that this character has become an embarrassment, now that I think of it. He grows throughout the story, but I want that personal growth to be fraught with personal failures and such. He is ultimately loyal to one of the other protagonists - as long as things go his way.

I would think that there would be some form of humiliation for the boy, but when you say order of certain knights; is that what his father wants from him or just to be a normal knight? and yes it would be talked about in court if it was a nobles son, well i would have thought so. i think that his father would be more disappointed than embarrassed. i know i would. knights where not just fighters as you mentioned, some just held the title as advisers and etc. As for squires who failed to gain knighthood i would think that they'd stay as squires or they would leave, whether it be from shame or thy could not handle it anymore.

 

[Jess A]

Greg: University is a good idea. Another way to try to get some discipline for his son. Education (perhaps even with personal tutors in his father's duchy, as he would have had at the Earl's place). Or sending him out to fight. He doesn't want a selfish brat becoming the next Duke. I think it will be a while before his father dies, so I need places for the son to be.

Taro: Yes I created the Order instead of having 'knights'. I don't think I will call them 'knights', but was looking for a comparison. I'm not sure - but now I have a few more ideas to play with. For example - nobles training to become squires and then part of the King's Order (which is not the same as being a knight), and others - perhaps the gentry, lower/poorer nobility and such - training to becoming squires and then simply knights (or remaining as squires if knighthood was too expensive).