Publishing pay, and publication credits (short stories)

[Steerpike]

Interesting discussion I had with a very successful science fiction writer who was also an editor for one of the largest science fiction and fantasy publishers (and what was, at the time, the highest-paying short story market). The discussion centered around what markets to sell to and what publication credits to mention.

This editor's advice was not to sell to any market that didn't pay professional rates. Under no circumstances publish in a non-paying market. He also said that he was not only unimpressed by submissions accompanied by non-professional publishing credits, but that it immediately told him that the author either couldn't sell to professional markets or didn't even believe her own work was good enough to warrant professional pay.

I've thought about it since the conversation, and I think he makes some good points, though I am not quite as strict in my application of the advice. I've decided to target professional markets first, and then go to semi-pro markets if I can't get the professional markets to bite. I won't mention sales other than to professional markets in my submissions or queries. I already wouldn't submit to non-paying market so that is no change to me.

How do the rest of you feel about this?

 

[Telcontar]

As tight as the short-story publishing market is, I'd say ignore him and submit to any paying market. Submit to the higher paying ones FIRST, certainly - but it isn't as if you need announce every publication you get to every submission after that. If you think a sale isn't quite prestigious enough, then don't include it in your credits.

Many of the people I know who have achieved some success did begin with short fiction, and many of those made many sales to semi-pro rate markets. This guy's experience might be skewed if he is, like you say, a "very successful" scifi writer.

Also, can't argue with money in the bank.

 

[Steerpike]

Those are good points, Telcontar. And this guy got his start in the 60s, when things might have been quite different. He has some great stories to tell about all kinds of authors. The thing that made me think, though, is that if he holds that view then there may be other editors who do as well.

I'll submit to any pro or semi-pro market.

 

[Shockley]

Just for an opposing opinion, Stephen King in his writing book makes the exact opposite point - let magazines publish you, even if all they're willing to give is a copy of their magazine. Any credit at all is better than no credit.

But you're definitely right - submit to the best paying publications first.

 

[kennyc]

....
This editor's advice was not to sell to any market that didn't pay professional rates. Under no circumstances publish in a non-paying market. He also said that he was not only unimpressed by submissions accompanied by non-professional publishing credits, but that it immediately told him that the author either couldn't sell to professional markets or didn't even believe her own work was good enough to warrant professional pay....

Hmmm, very interesting. I can see what he's saying, but not sure it applies across the board.
I really wonder who this editor is?

 

[Steerpike]

Hmmm, very interesting. I can see what he's saying, but not sure it applies across the board.
I really wonder who this editor is?

Yes. But the statements were made to me privately, and I don't want to post the name publicly. I was just throwing it out there for discussion purposes. I'm sure you'd find a wide range of views on this among published authors and editors.

 

[Rikilamaro]

I would say start at the top and work your way down. I wouldn't sell to a non-paying market at all because that's giving away all of my hard work for free. It also shows that either I didn't believe in my work enough to demand decent pay for it, or it shows I went through the entire gamut and ended up in the bottom of the barrel with the rotten apples. There's my two cents.

 

[kennyc]

Some say the smell of rotting apples enhance creativity.

 

[Rikilamaro]

Some say the smell of rotting apples enhance creativity.

Really? Wow, whatever was I thinking. I must go get some apples immediately!

 

[Devor]

I think there's definitely a little bit of truth to the claim, and I've heard similar statements made about work in other industries. Sometimes people will see average credential and think not excellent credential, in some cases to the point where it's better not to list them at all.

Whether or not that's always the most pertinent thing to worry about is another story. If you want to shoot high, and you think you can brand yourself as a top-quality author, it might be worth considering. But I think most of us have to prep for more realistic goals, and just like with other industries, there's nothing wrong with building a resume that says I consistently got better over time, so that now I'm a top-notch author.

But if there's a take-away, I think it should be not to undersell your work. Doing so will give the impression you're further behind in your skills than you actually are.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Really? Wow, whatever was I thinking. I must go get some apples immediately!

Maybe the thought process goes like this: "Ugh, that smell is awful. If I write a best-seller, I'll be able to afford someone to clean this place!"

 

[TWErvin2]

I guess it depends on one's perspective. As an editor of one of the few remaining pro-paying markets, shooting for them makes a lot of sense for him/her.

Submitting a completed short story to them first makes sense. However, there are niche markets and semi-pro markets, and markets that do pay a small amount and/or copies.

It's sort of like telling a baseball player, don't play in Single, Double or Triple A. If you can't make the team in the Major Leagues, don't play at all.

I do agree, especially with non-paying venues where a work might have been published, not to consider or use them as credits, espeically with pro markets.

I've had some works published with non-paying. They were inspirational pieces and had a different purpose. I've had SF/Horror/Mystery shorts published in ezines, magazines and anthologies. Some for a flat rate of $5.00 or $25.00 plus copies, or a royalty, such as $0.05 or $0.25 per copy sold, plus copies. I knew what I was getting and what to expect when signing the contract.

Although the short fiction market is a little different than novel-length, it's like saying if one of the big six publishers doesn't offer a contract, don't bother with the piece, don't waste time with any of the mid-sized or small publishing houses. For some that makes sense and is the way to go--but not for everyone.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Hmm... While I am not a top-notch writer, but an entry-level dreamer, I AM top-notch in my field. I have been working on my craft for over 15 years, and though my rate is competitive ($20/hr. flat rate plus supplies), I am capable of doing things which really should cost thousands, but my clients get a much better price (because that's what a local market can afford). Am I worth thousands of dollars? Absolutely. I'm freaking great at what I do. Can I get those gigs? Nope. You gotta know someone to get into such a specialized market, and unfortunately, I don't know anybody.

Isn't all art the same? Don't you have to do favors for people and work for peanuts to get your foot in the door in any field? It is a rare artist indeed who gets lucky and gets people excited about their first work, and unfortunately, many great artists will never be discovered at all.

 

[Lillian Crowe]

I remember reading an interview that Neil Gaiman did, in which he said that he would submit work to loads of places, and when they rejected him, he'd claim a publication on his CV anyway. The editors would publish him, and they didn't check - which indicates to me that the magazines in question were not high end enough for them to have read, and that they were more concerned by the experience he'd had publishing, rather than the quality of the place that featured his work.

If an editor likes your work, I have my doubts he/she would turn you down because you have experience publishing with a 'lesser' magazine. We all have to start somewhere, and especially now there are a lot of little (e-)zines that no one has ever heard of. Some of them are great and some are rubbish, but no one on the editorial staff is going to go through and check them all for their quality.

I don't really see a downside to publishing where you can, especially if you get paid for it. If it's not 'high end' enough you don't have to put it on a CV or resume.

 

[kennyc]

Well, yeah, what he did was bit like padding your resume and not a good idea. As you say list your publications and as they grow, re-evaluate and remove the 'lesser' ones (if you feel you should).

 

[Lillian Crowe]

Yeah, I don't think I would do it myself, but it shows the time versus quality dilemma of editors. I mean, a lot of good things end up buried in the slush pile because editors don't have the time. So are they going to look up every place that has published you to make sure that it's 'good enough?'

 

[kennyc]

True, I'm more of the "The Writing Speaks for Itself" kind of reader.