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Readers, really that difficult to please?

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
We can break-down semantics here, but what really constitutes "crap?" Some may think the books you read are crap because they're too difficult or they don't like the subject material. There are so many factors that come along with reading a book that it's impossible to discern what is "good" and what is "crap." It's all subject to opinion. This is what these conversations always seem to break down to: opinion vs. absolutism. "There is no perfect way" vs. "There is a perfect way."

As far as Brian's beliefs on writing, I think he makes excellent points in his rules on writing thread about what is a pretty good path towards writing to the best of your ability. Problem is, not everybody follows good writing habits and they are successful in spite of them. Does this mean they're "crap?" No, it means that they found perhaps a different way to connect with an audience.

I've experienced the same thing. I've read books that I read when I was younger and thought "Hmm...that's not very good." But therein lies my error. It WAS good because I liked it when I read it. And that's what (most) books are about. At least as far as the fantasy genre goes. People read fantasy to enjoy it, not necessarily pick it apart. If I enjoyed the books when I was 15 then they did their job. I agree that certain books may appeal to 15 year old Phil that don't appeal to 30-something year old Phil. My main concern with reading and writing is to make it as good as possible at that moment. I think something that severely limits new writers is this need to be perfect right out the gate. Sometimes you need to stumble and falter to learn what works best for you. Even everything you perfectly polish now might look like crap to you in another 5 years. It's impossible to live up to certain standards. But I admire anyone that attempts to. Just for most people, it's best not to obsess over too many matters when writing OR reading.
 

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
Like the old joke says...
How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
You gotta practice.
I have heard of the 10,000 hour rule [it takes a long time to make an "expert"]; while I might not go with an exact number, I think the concept behind it is valid.
You get "better" [closer to what you want to write] by writing; learning from others that you think have something to teach you and then writing again.
Better and expert for me are all subjective terms...
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
We can break-down semantics here, but what really constitutes "crap?" Some may think the books you read are crap because they're too difficult or they don't like the subject material. There are so many factors that come along with reading a book that it's impossible to discern what is "good" and what is "crap." It's all subject to opinion. This is what these conversations always seem to break down to: opinion vs. absolutism. "There is no perfect way" vs. "There is a perfect way."

As far as Brian's beliefs on writing, I think he makes excellent points in his rules on writing thread about what is a pretty good path towards writing to the best of your ability. Problem is, not everybody follows good writing habits and they are successful in spite of them. Does this mean they're "crap?" No, it means that they found perhaps a different way to connect with an audience.

I've experienced the same thing. I've read books that I read when I was younger and thought "Hmm...that's not very good." But therein lies my error. It WAS good because I liked it when I read it. And that's what (most) books are about. At least as far as the fantasy genre goes. People read fantasy to enjoy it, not necessarily pick it apart. If I enjoyed the books when I was 15 then they did their job. I agree that certain books may appeal to 15 year old Phil that don't appeal to 30-something year old Phil. My main concern with reading and writing is to make it as good as possible at that moment. I think something that severely limits new writers is this need to be perfect right out the gate. Sometimes you need to stumble and falter to learn what works best for you. Even everything you perfectly polish now might look like crap to you in another 5 years. It's impossible to live up to certain standards. But I admire anyone that attempts to. Just for most people, it's best not to obsess over too many matters when writing OR reading.

I must say that I disagree pretty much completely with this.

Firstly, my opinions are probably shaped a lot by my profession.

I can't just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I think I'll be an engineer and start charging people for my services." Instead, I had to go to school, work under an engineer for a while, and get a special certification.

Not so for writing. Anyone can simply put stuff down and try to charge money for it regardless of the quality.

On one hand, I'm all about letting the market decide. If you can find an audience, your work obviously had merit. On the other hand, the noise produced by so many choosing to put work out there, some of extremely low quality, makes it more difficult for others to get noticed.

It brings up a lot of subjective questions:

1. What should an author's objective be, to produce quality material or to produce material that sells?
2. Is there any ethical obligation to make sure your material is of a certain quality before trying to charge money for it?

I'm not sure that there are absolute, objective answers to either of those questions. But, from the opposite perspective, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to advise perspective authors that they need to consider these issues. There are certainly going to be people in the reading audience that are going to be judging based on them, and they need to be prepared for that judgment.

Secondly, it is possible to produce complete crap. Not every word that is produced by anyone has artistic, or any other kind, of merit. It would kinda be like me thinking my toddler's finger painting deserves to be displayed in the Louvre because it's "art." There is training, a learning curve, and talent involved even in producing art.

While, like Phil, I don't want to discourage anyone from trying, I would like to encourage them to make sure, by some external criteria, that they're ready before trying to charge money for their work.
 

WyrdMystic

Inkling
I'm not sure that was exactly Phil's point (correct me if I'm wrong) - I think what he's getting at is there is a difference between pure crap and what people think is crap based on their own preferences.

Also, that there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. You can follow rules to nth and still produce crap, likewise you can shirks the rules altogether and manage to pull of something fresh and exciting.

At the end of the day, if someone likes your story and are happy to have paid for it - it doesn't matter what rules they have and haven't followed because the author has succeeded in what they set out to do - entertain.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I'm not sure that was exactly Phil's point (correct me if I'm wrong) - I think what he's getting at is there is a difference between pure crap and what people think is crap based on their own preferences.

Also, that there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. You can follow rules to nth and still produce crap, likewise you can shirks the rules altogether and manage to pull of something fresh and exciting.

At the end of the day, if someone likes your story and are happy to have paid for it - it doesn't matter what rules they have and haven't followed because the author has succeeded in what they set out to do - entertain.

I don't think anything that I wrote contradicts that idea that writing is subjective or concerns "rules" at all. I'm simply advocating that, if you want to charge for your work, perhaps it's a good idea for you to seriously consider whether that work is truly worthy of people paying money for it and seek an external method of validation.
 

WyrdMystic

Inkling
Sorry, i think I was thrown by the bit where you said 'I must say that I disagree pretty much completely with this. '

The only people who will decide whether your work is good or not is your readers. How much effort uou put into external measures is questionable, and I would say its to protect the author perhaps more than the reader.

External measures are subjective in themselves. What a writer does and doesn't want to do before putting themselves out there is completely up to them and they shoulder the risk themselves.

Saying that, i personally think getting feedback is good, but i've also had feedback from both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between so I'm not sure it has been a useful way for me to measure the quality of my work, even though it has helped me consolidate what I do and don't know or think and help me define my audience better.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Sorry, i think I was thrown by the bit where you said 'I must say that I disagree pretty much completely with this. '

The only people who will decide whether your work is good or not is your readers. How much effort uou put into external measures is questionable, and I would say its to protect the author perhaps more than the reader.

External measures are subjective in themselves. What a writer does and doesn't want to do before putting themselves out there is completely up to them and they shoulder the risk themselves.

Saying that, i personally think getting feedback is good, but i've also had feedback from both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between so I'm not sure it has been a useful way for me to measure the quality of my work, even though it has helped me consolidate what I do and don't know or think and help me define my audience better.

Again, I come from a perspective where a certain measure of professionalism is expected. I understand that not everyone shares that viewpoint.

I don't, however, feel that it is condescending for me to say, "That author is publishing something that I consider to be unprofessional crap for these reasons...."

I do not feel that I'm the only person who is going to express that opinion, and, for each that says it, there are probably a lot more that say it. I think that any author needs to be prepared for such opinions to be expressed.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
There's one thing I'm asking myself though, from the perspective of a reader. Are they really so quick to put down a book because it has too much description, unnecessary uses of the word "said", passive sentences, telling and so on?

Getting back to the OP.

I tend to approach writing from two different directions: I like both to study the theoretical/philosophical side of what is "best" and ethical AND I like to think about what is the best way for us to turn our "hobby" into a money making venture. The two sides sometimes contradict.

I think that the optimal path to success is maximizing profits. That means putting in the absolute minimal amount of effort required to produce something that is going to sell. To do that, I think you have to consider your audience.

That audience varies a lot in tastes and discernment depending on what you're trying to do. A reader who is an English teacher is going to be a lot less forgiving about grammar than one who isn't. Some people may love anything with unicorns; others will avoid your story like the plague if there's a mention of a unicorn.

it seems like a good path to getting noticed is bloggers that promote independent authors. I think that these bloggers are in some ways very tolerant of technical issues and, in other ways, require strict adherence.

Think about it from their perspective. If you're a book blogger, it's because you love books, and you're looking for any good story. On the other hand, if your blog has any measure of success, you're being innudated by self published authors trying to promote their work. They have far more submissions than they can ever read. Therefore, they have to develop a quick method of separating the wheat from the chaff.

I think to reach that audience, you have to grab their attention immediately and have the start of your book be pretty darn sound.

Not all technical issues are created equal. The use of "said" is not likely to turn them away nearly as quickly (or, admittedly, at all) as starting your masterpiece with ten pages of passive, telling description.

So, yes, I think that some technical issues are very important as some speak directly to your ability to achieve engagement. If the reader can't get into your book, you've lost the sale.

On the other hand, if you can achieve engagement, the rest doesn't matter all that much. If I'm engaged in a book, I don't notice the flaws. It's when the author loses that engagement that the issues start standing out because my mind is out of the book and I'm looking for the issues that caused the lack of immersion.
 

Amanita

Maester
I'm happy that my post has sparked such a vivid discussion. :)
I certainly agree with the opinion that self-published authors need to make sure that they're offering work up to certain standards. If a book is published traditionally, the editiors (hopefully) reject anything that's badly flawed or ask the author to improve if they think there's still hope. In case of self-publishing, this level of control is missing.
Still, I think in some cases, it's up to debate if anything that doesn't follow some rules is "crap" right away. I've always been quite fond of adverb use in my reading, things such as "he said calmly", or "he shouted angrily". Reading this piece of advice over and over again, I've been trying to leave them out of my own writing but I'm still not entirely convinced that it's better that way.
I'm really not sure if it's really the most productive approach to force the reader to figure out too many things on himself so that there are no "unnecessary words."

Unlike someone else on this forum, I think it was you BW Foster, I'm not happier if an author explains as little as possible. I've often been frustrated by fantasy stories which have hinted at something interesting but never explored it. To me as a reader, this doesn't show that the author did a good job keeping to the relevant, stuff but it makes me think that he probably hasn't thought this out himself. Sometimes, I'm imagining things myself in such cases but that never really satifys me. If I read a story by someone else, I want to know what this other person imagined and not be left with my own imagination.
These are questions where I really don't think that there's an objective right or wrong. There are good and bad ways of explaining something in a book of course, but they don't always have to do with the amount of explanation.
 

Xaysai

Inkling
Unlike someone else on this forum, I think it was you BW Foster, I'm not happier if an author explains as little as possible. I've often been frustrated by fantasy stories which have hinted at something interesting but never explored it. To me as a reader, this doesn't show that the author did a good job keeping to the relevant, stuff but it makes me think that he probably hasn't thought this out himself. Sometimes, I'm imagining things myself in such cases but that never really satifys me. If I read a story by someone else, I want to know what this other person imagined and not be left with my own imagination.

I don't want to speak for Brian, but I don't think he's advising anyone to "explain as little as possible".

I think it's more "use as few explanations as possible while still being the most effective you can be."

He's talking about efficiency.

Personally, I feel as though there are diminishing returns on words in a sentence. Once you go past a certain point, you are no longer adding to the experience, just to the word count.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Personally, I feel as though there are diminishing returns on words in a sentence. Once you go past a certain point, you are no longer adding to the experience, just to the word count.

I don't think so. I think it comes down to the stylistic effect you want to achieve. You could re-write Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast novels in the style of James Patterson, but it would be at terrible cost to the work itself. The language and Peake's use of it make it a unique experience.
 

Xaysai

Inkling
I don't think so. I think it comes down to the stylistic effect you want to achieve. You could re-write Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast novels in the style of James Patterson, but it would be at terrible cost to the work itself. The language and Peake's use of it make it a unique experience.

Right, but his style is adding to the experience.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I'm not happier if an author explains as little as possible. I've often been frustrated by fantasy stories which have hinted at something interesting but never explored it. To me as a reader, this doesn't show that the author did a good job keeping to the relevant, stuff but it makes me think that he probably hasn't thought this out himself. Sometimes, I'm imagining things myself in such cases but that never really satifys me. If I read a story by someone else, I want to know what this other person imagined and not be left with my own imagination.

Amanita,

A lot of "rules" are contradictory. I firmly believe that a fundamental principle of engaging writing is clarity. On the other hand, going too far with clarity leads to over explaining, which is just as bad.

I don't see the question being should you be clear or should you not over explain as much as how do you find the correct balance.

Still, I think in some cases, it's up to debate if anything that doesn't follow some rules is "crap" right away.

I don't think that I ever wrote, and I didn't mean to imply, that writing is crap simply because it doesn't follow some rules. Two important takeaways:

1. It is possible for writing to be crap.
2. What is crap writing is entirely subjective.

For me, writing is crap if it completely fails to engage me (oversimplifying here. I can note really good prose that I think is good enough to engage others even if it doesn't, for whatever reason, engage me. I'm just trying to say that it's my main criteria.). Most of the time, if writing fails to engage me, I attribute, rightly or wrongly, that inability to a failure to uphold certain "rules."
 
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