[Reading Group] Shadow & Claw

1. Yes, I felt the same with the first chapter, although I actually read it a while back. I can't really say I've read any other fantasy writer like Wolfe. I feel he takes a more literary approach to his writing than a fantasy one. This is probably why he has achieved such high praise in the community over the years because his style is unique in the genre. I'm not a huge fan of stories where I have to puzzle things together, but as I've said before, when it works, it works. In the case of Wolfe, I can't really say if it works for me yet. I'm reading, but it's more like a school assignment than for personal enjoyment at this point. That may change though.

2. I get the feeling the first chapter has more of a prologue feel. That may explain some of the disjointedness. I feel that because this story is from a first person perspective, it hops around a bit more and doesn't seem to have a linear path. It doesn't bother me that he does this, but from a traditional reading perspective it was confusing.

3. Severian seems to be different than the others around him. I can't quite place it yet, but he doesn't seem to fit in. I feel like I'm saying "I can't quite place it yet" a lot because in all honesty, I have no idea what is happening five chapters in. I'm getting bits and pieces of understanding here and there, but I'm more entranced with the prose than I am the actual story.

4. I have never understood the various definitions of purple prose. I've always thought this to be overly descriptive writing, meaning it has a negative meaning. In that case, I don't find Wolfe's descriptions overwrought. He definitely seems to be more about setting the mood than advancing the story though. This is why many people probably find him inaccessible when they pick up his books. They may be expecting a typical fantasy yarn and they come across this more artistic approach.

5. I agree with what others have said. I think the intention is to create a world so alien from our own, that it's hard for us to really connect with it. This is the reason things are mentioned like people marrying lions and bears without it being considered abnormal to Severian. This is the kind of world-building that can be either off-putting or captivating. I haven't put the book down completely yet, so the world is definitely one of the strengths of the story so far.

I think I'd put Wolfe in the same category with someone like Jack Vance or even Steven Erikson. He doesn't hold your hand and explain things to you. They're just there and it's up to you to unpack it and figure it out. I like this approach in some aspects. It reminds me strongly of Jodorowsky's films. You're assaulted by images and it's up to you to piece it all together.

 

I'm within a handful of chapters of the end of Shadow, and will be moving on to Claw. My thoughts on the questions:

1. I found the first chapter to be a hurdle. The first time I tried to read this story, I struggled with what was going on and Gene Wolfe's descriptive writing. Was it the same with you?

Not so much. I won't give an author long to pull me into a story, and in this case I was intrigued by the book and pulled into the writing right off the bat. This is primarily the strength of Wolfe's prose. I like the level of descriptiveness in the prose, which I find to be at perhaps the high end of moderate.

2. Although the first chapter was a hurdle, it provides action and a hint of conflict. The proceeding chapters are clearer, but seem disjointed from what we're introduced to. Have you foind this to be true? Does it bother you that Gene Wolfe stepped away from the plot to develop Severian's character and showcase the world?

I don't remember feeling disjointed, though the approach to narrative is not the standard one. I'll have to go back and look at this specifically when I have the book in my hand, but I didn't feel disjointed at any point. It doesn't bother me that Wolfe stepped away from the ongoing narrative to do other things, like develop character and so on. He does this a number of times throughout the work.

3. Severian belongs to guild of torturers. Do you find Severian's personality in compliance with the savage nature of the guild? If not, does this bother you?
I wouldn't say he's in compliance with the nature of the guild. There are certain aspects of his personality that are in compliance, and he sees the world he was brought up in as a rote, formal, machine of society, and at least early on doesn't much question its function or necessity. However, even early on I think he was just enough out of step that he seemed separate from his fellow guild members. It doesn't bother me - I think Severian's character is interesting in terms of how Wolfe develops him. I can't say I like him, but I'm intrigued by him.

4. Gene Wolfe's writing is beautiful and descriptive. I'd venture to say it falls squarely in the realm of "purple prose." Do you think so? Do you think he's able to pull it off (writing purple prose yet retaining your attention)?

I don't think it is purple prose (my definition of purple prose has a negative connotation, meaning the author overreached or handled the description ineptly. I don't think Wolfe does either). In terms of works I've read lately, Wolfe is squarely toward the high end of "moderate" in terms of descriptiveness. I read enough that is much more dense and descriptive than Wolfe that I don't usually consider him to be an example of heavy description, though he is certainly more descriptive than the likes of Abercrombie, etc. Wolfe's work certainly retains my attention, so I think he's successful in this regard, and interestingly he is successful even though he goes off on tangents at times, or presents descriptions that are at the same time dense and somewhat vauge in in terms of what is provided.

5. The world appears to be a post traumatic world simliar to Elysium but far more deteriorated. What is your opinoin of the world/setting?

I put this squarely in the dying earth category in that respect. We're not talking a post-apocalyptic near future, or even a handful of millenia into the future. My understanding is we're talking about a million or more years into the future where other worlds are known or even traveled to and humanity seems to have stagnated on earth.

 

I'm done with Shadow of the Torturer and on to Claw of the Conciliator. Like Mythopoet, I don't necessarily see any post-traumatic world at this point. My impression upon first getting into the story is that things have been on a sort of gradual decline (if you want to call it a decline) rather than having changed as a result of some traumatic event. That viewpoint is open to changing as the series moves on, but as for the initial impression, that's what it is (and it has been so long since I read these, I can't remember the details of the world's history).

 

Dang, you read fast!

I think I'm on Chapter 4 or 5 now. He is talking to some guy named Ultan. I'm curious what others think. Do you believe a modern fantasy writer can write in Wolfe's style and still achieve success? Or is this kind of writing more designed for critical claim? I don't find really any mainstream appeal to this book at all. It's fascinating as art, but there's something I can't place missing.

 

I think a modern writer can achieve success doing this. Heck, Wolfe still writes, and still sells, and other writers get together and put out anthologies with homages to him (there is one that Neil Gaiman was involved in that is quite good). So I think it is fair to say Wolfe is popular.

Anyone else making progress on the stories? If you don't like Severian in Shadow of the Torturer, I don't think you'll like him any better at the beginning of Claw of the Conciliator, but he remains an interesting character.

 

True, he's not filthy rich by any stretch...but he's won numerous awards, had games made about his work, songs about them, books written about him and his work, homages from other authors playing in his world or writing stories Gene Wolfe would like etc.

To me, that's all pretty cool. And as you said, he makes a living, gets to be guest of honor at cons and so on. I'd take that gig

 

I'm on about page 50. I'm reading multiple things on my Kindle and I have this book in print, so it's not getting my full attention.

It's interesting to note that two of you mentioned Wolfe does well with a niche audience. One thing I think a lot of writers focus on nowadays is becoming big and having multi-book deals and such. However, I find with the rise of indie writers there is a lot more room for realistic careers. You might not be swimming in coins, but you'll be comfortable. I think it also opens up opportunities for the niche fantasy writers that they're might not have been room for otherwise.

I brought this up before about self-published writers having a unique opportunity to bust open the genre and do new things with it. New things that a mainstream audience or a mainstream fantasy publisher may not touch. Wolfe seems one of those kind of writers that is in an interesting position in that he's pretty well known in fantasy circles, but maybe not as widely read. He reminds me of a Jodorowsky-style figure.

I'd recommend Wolfe to others simply because he's hard to pin down. That's one thing I like about certain writers. You can't really sum up their style in a couple of words. I agree that he seems like a writers' writer more than one readers would flock to. If he's built a career from that, it must be satisfying to not have to sacrifice his vision and still gain critical acclaim. When so many people focus on making big bucks writing, I think you'd notice mid-list authors are more the norm than any others out there.

 

1) Wolfe chooses his words carefully. Some are made-up, of course, but as you said some are not. Even the main character's name seems to me to be significant. Look, for example, at Severus of Antioch.

2) The scene with Thecla seemed to me to point to some humanization of Severian. He still maintains this very formal approach to things, including the dictates of his profession, and the detachment that comes with it. But it seems to me that the incident with Thecla separates Severian from his fellow torturers.

3) I liked the details. So long as it remains interesting, I'm content to let an author go in this direction. I like Wolfe's writing, so I enjoyed it.

4) I don't think this is an inherent limitation of first person. I've read first person novels where the narrator unexpectedly dies. First person is not an assurance that the narrator will live. In this particular case it is because Severian tells you so. But that doesn't bother me for this particular book, because it isn't written as an action or suspense-filled novel. It's more cerebral, and that can be pulled off even when you know the narrator survives.

I should point out, as well, that in the vast majority of stories the main character lives, and there are all kinds of series where the characters return book after book, so you know they're going to live. Many of those are third person. So, knowing the main character is going to live is kind of the default assumption in books.

 

Anyone else getting the impression that we need to stick to more mainstream/commercial books if we want to keep participation in the reading group high?

 

I do agree with this. I'd like to read classics and books that we should be reading as fantasy lovers and writers, but the more mainstream books have had more people participating.

I'm still reading this book, but I can see how it would be difficult for most people. I'm going at it very slow, but I'm on about page 60 now. I can definitely see the appeal as more literary fantasy. I think it is good to read different kinds of books for this group, but sticking to more mainstream fantasy might help increase activity. Or maybe even choosing more controversial books even.

I'm going to be making some choices for November soon, so I'll try to keep in mind some books that might be interesting for a wider base.