[Reading Group] Shadow & Claw

[Philip Overby]

OK, I'm at around page 80 now and I'm starting to see some semblance of story. However, I'm not entirely sure these novels were written with telling a coherent story in mind (I could be wrong). It feels like art, open to interpretation and designed for people to get whatever out of it. That's why I see the time jumping and Severian's general distance from everything to be very interesting. I feel like the world is revealed in short clips, which can be frustrating for some readers. I find myself being both mesmerized and confused at the same time. I mentioned before the comparison to Jodorowsky, who I greatly admire as a visual artist and director, but I have no clue what any semblance of story some of his work has. I would love to see more people do such visually beautiful fantasy like this but with a more concrete story.

Reading fiction like this sometimes makes me feel like I'm not well-read though, which disappoints me. I'm in a constant state of "I don't get it" but for whatever reason it still interests me.

 

[Mythopoet]

I had to take a break from this for the last few days because I've been sick and this really isn't the kind of book I can read when my head is all fuzzy. I think I may need to reread some of the parts I read when I was first getting sick because none of it made any sense. Though that might not have had anything to do with me. As my husband once said, "All Gene Wolfe and no Gene Wolfe makes Gene Wolfe Gene Wolfe!"

 

[Philip Overby]

Things are starting to become clearer for me but I find these days I have less and less focus when reading. That and Joe Hill stole my attention.

 

[Steerpike]

Joe Hill is very good.

 

[Philip Overby]

I was thinking we should try a horror book one month but wasn't sure. Hill is one of those that is wildly imaginative but also accessible. Looking forward to reading Horns as I loved the sample.

 

[Steerpike]

I've read Heart-Shaped Box and 20th Century Ghosts. Both good. For a good horror that would likely appeal to fantasy fans, Glen Duncan's The Last Werewolf is great. Another excellent writer. One of my favorite "horror" novels is the classic The Haunting of Hill House, by Shirley Jackson.

 

[Mythopoet]

I had a long discussion with my husband last night about these books. He knows I'm not one who cares about spoilers or surprises so he was doing his best to explain some of my questions. Noting, however, that even though he's read these books 3 times and is reading them again with me now, there are a lot of questions that don't have certain answers, just fan theories. Several times while we talked I felt the need to exclaim, "but that doesn't make any sense!" It's not easy to explain what's going on in these books and while I do feel I have a better understanding of the overall story now, I still feel terribly confused by a multitude of things. My head was reeling at the end of our discussion.

That's just the kind of books they are, I guess.

 

[Steerpike]

That's part of the charm of Wolfe, though, and to me it's what takes him toward literary fiction territory. There's a lot that isn't explained outright and subject to multiple interpretations, and the reading is really a two-person process between the reader and the author, and the reader's interpretations are just as significant as the author's intent.

 

[Philip Overby]

Yeah, I don't know if I'd even put Wolfe in the genre of fantasy. It definitely has a more literary feel with fantasy elements. This is the kind of book that I think I'd have to take a class on to unpack all the meanings and such. I remember the only other time I felt this confused reading a book was Ulysess by James Joyce. Well, Wolfe doesn't so much confuse me as I just wonder what the point of some things are. I'm sure they all have points, but I guess I'm too used to a traditional storytelling experience that it's hard for me to wrap my head around. I'm still on around page 80 and it doesn't look like I'm going to finish even one book (again...) I'm keeping it on stand-by to read at home, but I've since upgraded Perdido Street Station to my "current book" (coupled with NOS4R2).

 

[Mythopoet]

Well, Wolfe doesn't so much confuse me as I just wonder what the point of some things are. I'm sure they all have points, but I guess I'm too used to a traditional storytelling experience that it's hard for me to wrap my head around.

My theory is that Book of the New Sun is written in the way that people with Asperger's think. We have this book "A Field Guide to Earthlings: An Autistic/Aspergers View of Neurotypical Behavior". One of the things it explains is that when Neurotypicals think about or explain things they tend to focus on the big picture before honing in on the relevant details. On the other hand Autistic/Aspergers tend to focus on the details first and assemble the big picture from them. I can testify to this tendency from living with my husband for 12+ years. He always tries to explain details to me and it doesn't help me because I need the big picture first, which is inconceivable to him. How can you see the big picture if you don't know all the details? It's just one of those things. Anyway, it occurred to me that this is how Gene Wolfe writes, or at least how Gene Wolfe writes Severian writing. Severian is very much focused on the details to the point where many readers (like me) get frustrated because we can't tell what the story is all about.

Anyway, I do understand now what it is all about and if you don't mind spoilers I can tell you.

 

[Philip Overby]

Thanks for the offer, but I'd like to try to finish the first book at the very least. I probably won't make it to the 2nd book, so if I'd like some spoilers then, I'll post here in the thread. I want to finish the first book at least so I can say I did it, but I can see why this can be a frustrating read for a lot of people. From a prose perspective, this is the most beautifully written book we've had in the Reading Group so far. From a story perspective, it's been one of the most difficult to get into.

Very good point about the small details being important in this style of writing. When I write, I actually do world-building this way. I'll think of a creature or an organization or a race and then I'll just start writing about it, not knowing what it is or why it's there. Then I figure out (sometimes) why I put it there. Sometimes it's just for visuals or to make my writing pop out some way or another. When I think about it, when I read, I'm more of a big picture person. I like the details, but I want to know where the story is going. At least where I think it's going. However, when I write, I like to mess with the small details and build up from there.

Weird how that works out...

 

[Mythopoet]

Well, I'm on the second to last chapter of Claw so I'm set to finish this today. Then I can start on November's pick tomorrow. I'll definitely need a little break from Wolfe before I embark on the second half of the Book of the New Sun.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'm on the Baldlanders chapter (when he stays in the room with him) so not sure how much longer I have. I've still be reading it here and there at home, so I haven't given up yet.

I'm already 200 pages into the November choice, Perdido Street Station, but it probably would have been a good idea to pick something lighter after Wolfe. Still, I think Perdido Street Station is definitely a good book, just may be dense in some parts. Overall, very inventive and interesting though. I'm still plugging along.

 

[Mythopoet]

Well, I finished this on Saturday. Once again, I don't like the abrupt way he ends it. However, I am definitely getting more into the rhythm of the story and will definitely continue on to the next two books soon.