Religion vs. Magic

For my world building I have a problem with respect to above mentioned subjects. To illustrate my point, maybe an example from a probably familiar setting: World of Warcraft.

It always annoyed me that Nightelves had druids and priests, Trolls shamans and priests and Tauren shamans and druids. Alright, in World of Warcraft they function as different kinds of spell casters, thus playstyles; so it is understandable. However, priests, druids and shamans “in reality” are members of a spiritual caste, i.e. keepers of knowledge and wisdom, observers of sky and stars, responsible for religious rituals, sacrifices, etc.
Now let us just assume the leading principle of druids is nature, of shamans it is spirits, of priests it is light: How could these principles coexist? Mind: principles not rites or customs. I think it is reasonable to assume that (within respective cultures) there would be a conflict of these principles and only one would succeed. Yes, Paganism and Christianity, i.e. Monotheisim somehow were both practiced in Europe. However, this was a transition phase and in the end Christianity came on top while Paganism is no more – experts in this matter shall feel free to correct me.

In a nutshell: If two contrary principles exist, either one will prevail or followers of the different principles will split; and therefore just delay the conflict or shift it to another level.

Back to my world building. In mentioned context, I want to implement the following:

§1 Realism
Yes, in a fantasy world realism must be “bent” to a certain extent. However, I hope to create a setting with main features that can be explained reasonably and where something like “fantasy: it is as it is” remains a rare occasion.

§2 Magic
Supposed to be a science albeit a mystical one.
There are only few mages (maybe similar to the setting in The Witcher) and using magic is risky.
Mages are overall respected or feared, but eyed with mistrust.
Elemental magic: based on the elements water, air, fire and earth – i.e. full cliché mode.
Necromancy: rising the dead. Unsure about death’s counterpart life (Biomancy, Zoomancy?!?!). I fear it can too easily get out of control (world building perspective). Perhaps there will be some form of limited control over living beings, like plants or animals, almost certainly not over humans.

§3 – Religion
It shall remain faith. No healing “magic”. Obviously, law and order will be connected to Zeus, thunder and lightning to Thor and love to Venus, but there won’t be a God appearing in a scene giving a protagonist advice or smiting an antagonist. Same with demons and other forms. They might be in the consciousness of the people and also feared, but demons will neither roam the streets at night to hunt people down nor will they have some beers with mortals or Gods after work.
Religion will neither be to be shown as a scam nor will priests seen as charlatans.
Priests are also respected or feared, but unlike mages trusted.

The problem:
It does not seem reasonable. Let us just think about the following scenarios: There is a priest of Poseidon pleading and sacrificing to his God, but without predictable result. At the same time there is a mage which is able to control the waves. We have an elder priest, wielder of the holy hammer of Vulcan which is slain by a junior tramp, while one stone’s throw away a young sorceress within a blink of an eye burns a bunch of veteran cutthroats to ashes.
Both examples are extreme, and according to my ideas such magic shall be only possible for grandmasters of the arcane art. Still, my point should be clear: For everyone it is obvious that mages have control over elements, while priests have not. For what reason should people trust and follow the priest caste? Certainly a conflict would arise between mages and priests. Isn’t it realistic to assume that people (including mages and priests themselves) would think that the mages are closer to the Gods than the priests. Result: Mages would either replace the priest caste or at least be placed above the priests.

I considered to connect priests exclusively to abstract principles like law, order and justice. Would anyone buy that? I do not think so. Priests as a caste of healers in the sense of doctors? Guess, such a pantheon could be created, but appears too mundane, more like a lame excuse and not really believable. Obviously, life and death are the classic domains for priests. Well, a scheming necromancer can raise the dead but the Grandpriest of Hel, i.e. the highest authority of knowledge about the dead, the first servant of the Goddess of Death, cannot? Doesn’t make sense, don’t like that…

Well, this is the bind I found myself into. Though I wonder: Are my assumptions and conclusions correct? Do I miss something? Admittedly, I noticed that I listed contras, but no pros. Did I lose track and get bogged down into details?
Has anyone had similar thoughts about the relation religion-magic?

 

Following §2 and §3, as stated above, not exactly the direction I am looking for, since I hope to find a reasonable justification for the spiritual (religion) and the scientific (magic) element side by side. However, this...

...opens an entirely new perspective I was not thinking about.
Thank you a lot for your thoughts!

 

I understand your point. I view it from a more abstract angle though: Wether druids, shamans or priests all of them do represent the spiritual social stratum. Like for instance Achilles, King Arthur and Gottfried von Berlichingen represent the social stratum of the nobility. Thus, I am aware about the historical mage-priest relation; magi actually meant priests in Zoroastrianism.

Maybe I should clarify my thinking.
Let us take a historical and still actual referrence: Hinduism.
- Brahmins: spiritual leaders (and indeed as such magicians)
- Kshatriyas: warriors and rulers
- Vaishyas: farmers, craftsmen, merchants
- Shudras: labourers

In my (fantasy) setting one cultural group shall have this stratification:
- Brahmins: spiritual leaders
- Kshatriyas: warriors and rulers
- Mages: scholars and practitioners of magic (magic considered not to be spiritual, but a science or art)
- Vajshiyas: farmers, craftsmen, merchants
- Shudras: labourers

Now back to the problem of my first post:
Wouldn't the mages question the credibility of the faith when they posses control over elements, while the priests do not have such powers? I admit that I do not exactly know, how the Greek Gods for instance were related to elements. But - see above - a priest of the God of the Oceans cannot control waves, while a mage, a profane is able to do so? Wouldn't that question the legitimacy of that priesthood? That is the essence of my problem/question.

 

Not necessarily:

Controllability
Magic can be leant like craftsmanship or like wielding a sword. Thus it can be ancient too. Thing is, bricklaying and fencing are visible. Everyone can see a mason's apprentice learning his prefession, everyone can see a squire swinging a wooden stick. A mage weaving his hands and mumbling would be connected to something spiritual, with a possible result as shown above.
At least I guess so...

Riskiness
I did not go deeper into it, and it is also not the issue here, but maybe as an explanation: The elemental mage needs the element as a the source. Magic shall be controllable, but as mightyer the spell, as more source is available as higher the risk to lose control.
Back to our exampale of the mage, the God of the Ocean and the waves: Although I brought this example for illustration, the event itself should be rather seldom, for there is so much of the source. Hence, the risk of "overdosing" is high. Same with an earth mage standing on a mountain and trying to cause the eruption of a volcano: excessive amout of the source, risk is high to kill himself - unless he is a master of his art. (Leaving the power of the spell aside.)
That is the rough idea, with the simple goal: I do not want to overpower mages and risk problems in the plot.

Thinking about it, your objection is insofar valid, as "regular science", "ancient" and "not entirely controllable" (thus not understood) are not exactly an ideal combination...

 

You are probably right here.
Maybe fleshing out a credible "split of work" between religion and magic could help as well.

Maybe that I am somehow blocking myself; won't deny that. The thing is, I am very reluctant with healing, because I fear it can take out too much of the danger of life and I also do not want to be nailed down by a "hard religion" system.

Helpful considerations, though I feel it stands and falls with the present issue, while the details are the next step.

This is easily forgotten. Thank you for emphasising it.
Although I fear this tightens the sling around my neck.

I sincerely wish you were right...

 

100% agreed!

This is worth to be explored, indeed.
Another way to "buff" priesthood could also be "legitimacy". The legitimacy of the priesthood itself, and its required approval which worldly rulers need.

I did't really think about all the implications and possible upsides. But one reason I stopped reading fantasy books is, that according to my humble perception there is too much adaption of video and pen&paper game style, and I think it does not work well.
Maybe my example in the introduction with World of Warcraft somehow suggested, that I tend towards this way, but it is exactly the opposite.

Wouldn't I enter "hard religion" territory here? And do I really gain something, when I replace Gods with spirits? Goal is to leave religious power suggestive.

Need to think about that. I do consider elemental magic mainly because I feel that is the easiest way to constrain magic users in a believable way.

It is rather the realism issue which I have. Word of Warcraft can make generous concessions in this regard, since it is probably a minority which cares about immersion and a believable world.

There is a lot of truth in this. The peasant thinks about living in the traditions of his fathers, his pregnant wife, about the next harvest, and is worried for his cow Bertha which since four days does not give as much milk as she should. He must repair the roof of the stable, but firstly needs to go to the blacksmith to get some to buy some nails, etc. And his touchy daughter... Still. Not. Married. For God's sake! Yes. he heared that somewhere, at some place there are scholars, in colourful robes and with strange hats. Travellers told him about mysterious practices and vile sorceries. But none of these people will repair that damn bloody roof. True, the Goddess of the Hearthfire also won't, but tomorrow her priestress will come to look after his wife. Gods be praised! They protect him, his family, the village and his noble lord...

 

I respectfully disagree, thought not with what you are saying, but with the concept behind it. The difference made in RPGs by establishing druids, priests etc. as classes is to facilitate different playstyles.
In reality, or historically priests, druids, shamans, witch doctors, magi, brahmin, etc. were basically the same: a spiritual social class, the ones in contact with the, let us say, supernatural, metaphysical, transcendental (or whatever the correct term may be). That this concept had various manifestations in different cultures and ethnicities, is another story.