Self Publishing: Interested?

[Righmath]

Hey everyone,

I'm currently knee-deep in the second draft of my first book and I'm already thinking ahead to publishing. After doing some research, I'm starting to lean towards self-publishing rather than approaching a traditional publisher.

Why settle for a small piece of the profits that I worked hard to earn? And why would I want to give up control of a marketing budget? I'd much rather create my own publishing firm, one that's focused on fairness and transparency, and shares profits more equally with other authors.

To help with my decision-making process, I thought I would float this to the community which I know and love! I'd love to hear about your experiences with traditional publishing and self-publishing. Have you worked with a traditional publisher before? What was it like? Or have you self-published your work? What challenges did you face and what did you enjoy about the process?

Thanks in advance for your input. I appreciate it!

 

[Mad Swede]

From what I've seen most people here on these forums are self-published. I am not, I have a traditional publishing contract. Bear in mind that I am in Sweden, so the process here isn't the same as it would be in the UK or US.

Personally I appreciate the support I get from my publisher. They arrange all the editing, all the typesetting and printing, the cover, all the marketing, getting the book into the stores and onto the shelves (a neccessity in my view if you want visibility) - and they take care of any piracy that might occur. They sort out book signings, interviews etc. For this they take 70% of the wholesale price of the printed book (for e-books they take 45%). I get the rest in royalties - and I get an advance equivalent to the royalties I would get for sales of 50% of the first print run of a new book. For a print run of 1000 copies that isn't much, but once you're established and the first print run of a new book is 4000 or 5000 copies you're starting to talk about some real cash.

The real advantage for me is continuity, I have the same editor for all my books, the same cover designer. It keeps the style and image the same across the books and it makes the editing process very much easier. That's important for me because I am very severely dyslexic.

What a traditional publishing contract does not take away is the need to be visible - you as the author still have to do your bit, so you have to be available for interviews, book signings and talks. And when you do these things you do take a box or two of books along to sell to the audience.

One other advantage of a traditional publishing contract is that you don't have to find the cash for the editing, formatting, marketing etc. The publisher coughs up. The costs mount up fast, and my editor says publishing is really a form of venture capitalism, because the publisher is betting quite a lot of cash that your book will sell enough copies to cover all those costs. Which is why publsihers are so very selective about what books they choose to publish.

Yes, self-publishing means you have almost complete control - and it also means you are taking the full financial risk.

 

[ThinkerX]

Hey everyone,

I'm currently knee-deep in the second draft of my first book and I'm already thinking ahead to publishing. After doing some research, I'm starting to lean towards self-publishing rather than approaching a traditional publisher.

Why settle for a small piece of the profits that I worked hard to earn? And why would I want to give up control of a marketing budget? I'd much rather create my own publishing firm, one that's focused on fairness and transparency, and shares profits more equally with other authors.

To help with my decision-making process, I thought I would float this to the community which I know and love! I'd love to hear about your experiences with traditional publishing and self-publishing. Have you worked with a traditional publisher before? What was it like? Or have you self-published your work? What challenges did you face and what did you enjoy about the process?

Thanks in advance for your input. I appreciate it!

Getting self-published isn't difficult. Getting people to buy your book is a challenge. I have released five novels since June of last year. As of today, I have a grand total of 137 online sales, with my 'best seller' accounting for 45 of those. This despite spending better than three grand on various types of marketing.

 

[pmmg]

Getting self-published isn't difficult. Getting people to buy your book is a challenge. I have released five novels since June of last year. As of today, I have a grand total of 137 online sales, with my 'best seller' accounting for 45 of those. This despite spending better than three grand on various types of marketing.

I hope you make that back. That's not pleasant to hear.

 

[pmmg]

Why settle for a small piece of the profits that I worked hard to earn? And why would I want to give up control of a marketing budget? I'd much rather create my own publishing firm, one that's focused on fairness and transparency, and shares profits more equally with other authors.

I think the answer to this is not hard, cause the publisher will take the risk and front a lot of money to get your production off the ground, doing a lot of the work you would have to otherwise. And since they take the risk, you dont find yourself in a sinkhole if its not working.

I have worked with a publisher, and have not yet self published. I appreciate what they did, but I would prefer less ambiguity as to what is mine and what is theirs...such as, its all mine Seeking a publisher though is also a lot of work. You gotta send stuff, wait, send queries, wait, wonder what happened...second guess a lot. And maybe one in 10 will send you something back.

 

[ThinkerX]

I hope you make that back. That's not pleasant to hear.

It did suck me in, an overlooked payment at a time, made possible by a modest windfall.

Currently, I view my experiences as a cautionary tale and an investigation of what works and what does not. With that in mind, I suggest the Righmath and other interested parties read through this thread: https://mythicscribes.com/community/threads/where-to-go-from-here.24204/

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I'm too impatient for publishers/agents. I had everything planned out to go hard after an agent etc., then I ended up hitting my top 3 choices and Tor, and when those didn't pan out? I went Indie. When you're talking about a nobody approaching Sanderson's agent... that's pretty much deciding you're going Indie, unless you got the right book and the right timing, heh heh.

Then, after winning awards and whatnot, Covid shut the shit down everywhere, so I haven't been able to do all that in person at conventions... and to be blunt, I refuse to wear a mask, so that kills a lot of conventions for me even now. So! I've pretty much determined if they want me, they know where to find me. I'd love to go hybrid, but... I'm not picky either way.

When it comes to financing, sure, the publisher takes the risks on the cover and editors, but unless you're the shiny new toy in their stable, they aren't going to spend too many bucks on your promotion. This isn't to say that their built-in machine isn't valuable, because it is, BUT you're going to end up spending on promotion anyhow unless you're the lucky one. From what I hear from others, there was a time when they hired publicists for their writers... Don't expect that these days.

The indie side is no bed of roses, the market is flooded, but it is possible to break through. You can hope for quick success, but don't expect it.

 

[pmmg]

Currently, I view my experiences as a cautionary tale and an investigation of what works and what does not.

Yes, I hope that ends up being the cost of an education, and not a loss.

 

[Righmath]

From what I've seen most people here on these forums are self-published. I am not, I have a traditional publishing contract. Bear in mind that I am in Sweden, so the process here isn't the same as it would be in the UK or US.

Personally I appreciate the support I get from my publisher. They arrange all the editing, all the typesetting and printing, the cover, all the marketing, getting the book into the stores and onto the shelves (a neccessity in my view if you want visibility) - and they take care of any piracy that might occur. They sort out book signings, interviews etc. For this they take 70% of the wholesale price of the printed book (for e-books they take 45%). I get the rest in royalties - and I get an advance equivalent to the royalties I would get for sales of 50% of the first print run of a new book. For a print run of 1000 copies that isn't much, but once you're established and the first print run of a new book is 4000 or 5000 copies you're starting to talk about some real cash.

The real advantage for me is continuity, I have the same editor for all my books, the same cover designer. It keeps the style and image the same across the books and it makes the editing process very much easier. That's important for me because I am very severely dyslexic.

What a traditional publishing contract does not take away is the need to be visible - you as the author still have to do your bit, so you have to be available for interviews, book signings and talks. And when you do these things you do take a box or two of books along to sell to the audience.

One other advantage of a traditional publishing contract is that you don't have to find the cash for the editing, formatting, marketing etc. The publisher coughs up. The costs mount up fast, and my editor says publishing is really a form of venture capitalism, because the publisher is betting quite a lot of cash that your book will sell enough copies to cover all those costs. Which is why publsihers are so very selective about what books they choose to publish.

Yes, self-publishing means you have almost complete control - and it also means you are taking the full financial risk.

Hi Swede, thanks for giving me an insight to your agreement you have with your publisher.

So I've heard stories where publishers will only offer 10-20% of the profits from the book? The deal which you have sounds good. The thing is, I'm willing to set a large sum of cash aside to invest in the book, which of course includes marketing, editing, printing. I'm currently researching it all right now.

However, I must say, if I was offered 70% profits from my book I think I wouldn't bother self publishing. I think that's a fair trade off!

Question, do you sell any rights away when you sign with them? E.g. movie rights say? Will you lose any rights of profit for anything made creatively regarding your works?

 

[Righmath]

Getting self-published isn't difficult. Getting people to buy your book is a challenge. I have released five novels since June of last year. As of today, I have a grand total of 137 online sales, with my 'best seller' accounting for 45 of those. This despite spending better than three grand on various types of marketing.

Thinker, to me 3k sounds pretty low for an investment in marketing? In London 3k is a fee you might pay to hire the time of marketing professional? I live and die by the phrase you gotta spend money to make money

Are these books self published?

 

[Righmath]

I think the answer to this is not hard, cause the publisher will take the risk and front a lot of money to get your production off the ground, doing a lot of the work you would have to otherwise. And since they take the risk, you dont find yourself in a sinkhole if its not working.

I have worked with a publisher, and have not yet self published. I appreciate what they did, but I would prefer less ambiguity as to what is mine and what is theirs...such as, its all mine Seeking a publisher though is also a lot of work. You gotta send stuff, wait, send queries, wait, wonder what happened...second guess a lot. And maybe one in 10 will send you something back.

pmmg, can I ask what royalties you get from your publisher? Do you think it's fair? Do you lose monetary rights to your intellectual rights if its made into a movie?

 

[Righmath]

I'm too impatient for publishers/agents. I had everything planned out to go hard after an agent etc., then I ended up hitting my top 3 choices and Tor, and when those didn't pan out? I went Indie. When you're talking about a nobody approaching Sanderson's agent... that's pretty much deciding you're going Indie, unless you got the right book and the right timing, heh heh.

Then, after winning awards and whatnot, Covid shut the shit down everywhere, so I haven't been able to do all that in person at conventions... and to be blunt, I refuse to wear a mask, so that kills a lot of conventions for me even now. So! I've pretty much determined if they want me, they know where to find me. I'd love to go hybrid, but... I'm not picky either way.

When it comes to financing, sure, the publisher takes the risks on the cover and editors, but unless you're the shiny new toy in their stable, they aren't going to spend too many bucks on your promotion. This isn't to say that their built-in machine isn't valuable, because it is, BUT you're going to end up spending on promotion anyhow unless you're the lucky one. From what I hear from others, there was a time when they hired publicists for their writers... Don't expect that these days.

The indie side is no bed of roses, the market is flooded, but it is possible to break through. You can hope for quick success, but don't expect it.

Omg what, you should move over to the UK. Wearing a mask isn't a thing anymore. I know it's still pretty polarised (you guys manage to make everything polarised, idek how). It's a shame that closes conversations for you.

Do you know roughly how much money they will spend on marketing? I'm not worried about how I will get funds to do this myself if need be. Spend money to make money, and I'm pretty happy to back up what I've been creating for over half a decade with a lot of buck! Or what's the point, right?

 

[Mad Swede]

Hi Swede, thanks for giving me an insight to your agreement you have with your publisher.

So I've heard stories where publishers will only offer 10-20% of the profits from the book? The deal which you have sounds good. The thing is, I'm willing to set a large sum of cash aside to invest in the book, which of course includes marketing, editing, printing. I'm currently researching it all right now.

However, I must say, if I was offered 70% profits from my book I think I wouldn't bother self publishing. I think that's a fair trade off!

Question, do you sell any rights away when you sign with them? E.g. movie rights say? Will you lose any rights of profit for anything made creatively regarding your works?

Well, like I said, I'm in Sweden and I have a contract with a Swedish publisher. So the terms and conditions in that contract aren't exactly the same as they might be in the UK or US. When you talk about royalites you need to be clear if those are calculated on the wholesale price (as they are here in Sweden) or if they're calculated on the retail price. The 30% royalties I get are based on wholesale price (f-priset, as it's called here) so I don't get any extra if the book shops or web retailers charge more - but I also don't lose any money if they decide to discount the book as part of a campaign to encourage reading (the latest national campaign like that finished last week).

You need to check what rights are covered in the contract. My publishing contract only covers book rights in the Nordic countries and then only for a limited period (we've just renegotiated and extended the deal) - I retain the books rights everywhere else in the world. My contract does not include film, TV or radio rights, I still own those. I also retain copyright and ownership of the setting and the characters, just like I retain copyright and ownership of everything I write - it's the publishing rights I sell.

Setting, printing and book binding cost money, over here it costs about 80 000 SEK (about $8000) to print 300 hardback copies of a 95 000 word novel on 170g paper. If you want libraries to hold your book then you need a hardback edition. Most ordinary buyers are happy with a softback, and at that point you need to decide on the format.

Marketing is also needed - my publishers have a publicist and it's her job to arrange interviews, book signings and talks. A lot of this is about identifying where these book signings should be (i.e. analysing sales of previous books to see where most buyers live) and then coordinating these with interviews with local media. To put a price on her time, sending out review copies, talking to the various buyers for the big retailers, arranging 3 interviews and couple of book signings for my last book cost about 70 000 SEK. That was before I spent my time doing those interviews and signings, and preparing and then giving my talk.

So for the last book the publishers spent 80 000 SEK on printing 300 hardback copies, 620 000 SEK for 4000 trade paperback copies, 70 000 SEK for inital publicity and paid me an advance of just over 70 000 SEK. That was after editing and proof reading costs of 90 000 SEK, needed because I'm dyslexic. A total of 930 000 SEK - and this was before the costs of storage and distribution plus any ongoing marketing were added...

 

[ThinkerX]

Thinker, to me 3k sounds pretty low for an investment in marketing? In London 3k is a fee you might pay to hire the time of marketing professional? I live and die by the phrase you gotta spend money to make money

Are these books self published?

They are self-published. However, even traditionally published authors still need to do marketing - and a flop is always possible.

I have taken out ads and tried promos that cost me less than a meal at a fast-food joint that resulted in a few sales. Likewise, I have dropped three digits - more than once - for ads and promotions that failed completely. I belong to multiple Facebook writing groups and the tales I read in those posts line up with my experiences. Anymore, I have elected to stick with the discount deals.

 

[Righmath]

They are self-published. However, even traditionally published authors still need to do marketing - and a flop is always possible.

I have taken out ads and tried promos that cost me less than a meal at a fast-food joint that resulted in a few sales. Likewise, I have dropped three digits - more than once - for ads and promotions that failed completely. I belong to multiple Facebook writing groups and the tales I read in those posts line up with my experiences. Anymore, I have elected to stick with the discount deals.

Hey Thinker,

Thanks for giving me your experience of self-publishing. I recently listened to this book on audible.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Self-Published-Millionaire-Step-Step-Publishing/dp/1789330254/ref=asc_df_1789330254/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310529649066&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1136249537552271173&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9044964&hvtargid=pla-573962130664&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

It's got a lot of neat ideas in it. Try it out, especially as your self-publishing. The guy who wrote is is self published and it's the steps he's taken to give him an edge and realistically how he's gone about it.

If you're short on cash, there's another book called Guerilla Marketing for Books or something, but I've not yet listened to it.

 

[Righmath]

Well, like I said, I'm in Sweden and I have a contract with a Swedish publisher. So the terms and conditions in that contract aren't exactly the same as they might be in the UK or US. When you talk about royalites you need to be clear if those are calculated on the wholesale price (as they are here in Sweden) or if they're calculated on the retail price. The 30% royalties I get are based on wholesale price (f-priset, as it's called here) so I don't get any extra if the book shops or web retailers charge more - but I also don't lose any money if they decide to discount the book as part of a campaign to encourage reading (the latest national campaign like that finished last week).

You need to check what rights are covered in the contract. My publishing contract only covers book rights in the Nordic countries and then only for a limited period (we've just renegotiated and extended the deal) - I retain the books rights everywhere else in the world. My contract does not include film, TV or radio rights, I still own those. I also retain copyright and ownership of the setting and the characters, just like I retain copyright and ownership of everything I write - it's the publishing rights I sell.

Setting, printing and book binding cost money, over here it costs about 80 000 SEK (about $8000) to print 300 hardback copies of a 95 000 word novel on 170g paper. If you want libraries to hold your book then you need a hardback edition. Most ordinary buyers are happy with a softback, and at that point you need to decide on the format.

Marketing is also needed - my publishers have a publicist and it's her job to arrange interviews, book signings and talks. A lot of this is about identifying where these book signings should be (i.e. analysing sales of previous books to see where most buyers live) and then coordinating these with interviews with local media. To put a price on her time, sending out review copies, talking to the various buyers for the big retailers, arranging 3 interviews and couple of book signings for my last book cost about 70 000 SEK. That was before I spent my time doing those interviews and signings, and preparing and then giving my talk.

So for the last book the publishers spent 80 000 SEK on printing 300 hardback copies, 620 000 SEK for 4000 trade paperback copies, 70 000 SEK for inital publicity and paid me an advance of just over 70 000 SEK. That was after editing and proof reading costs of 90 000 SEK, needed because I'm dyslexic. A total of 930 000 SEK - and this was before the costs of storage and distribution plus any ongoing marketing were added...

Sorry, I completely misread. I thought you initially said you get 70% of profits.

• So all in all £72k the publisher spent on you
• Out of this you got £5.4k
• Now I assume you get some decent royalties, still?
• If you get 5k a year say from royalties, the publishers get 16.5k a year, so roughly your book would make 20k, which is a salary essentially from a book

And I assume you wouldn't get royalties until costs were met? Or is that wrong to assume that?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Wearing masks isn't a thing where I live, BUT the conventions are crazy. I was a speaker at last year's Nebulas, and it was virtual, and listening to people chat, I was shocked at how many are just terrified of life without a mask. I happily live in an area where even when there was a brief mask mandate, and some hysterical folks, I could ignore the mandate most of the time (outside of medical facilities) and most people didn't give a crap. Vaccine mandates, mask mandates... I don't know how serious they take them, but the cons are usually in places like LA and Chicago where virtue signaling is still a powerful thing.

Value: I don't think there is a number to put on some of the promo they can do for you. From what I gather, unless there was a bidding war for the rights to your book (in which case they have a major incentive to advertise to get their investment back) they pretty much "spend" their money and energy on their own internal systems of promotion to get you into bookstores and press releases and other stuff that might not cost them a dime in direct investment, and then if your book catches an updraft, they'll think about doing more. Publishers do have their followings, and your street cred pops the moment they sign you. It's almost impossible to put a dollar amount on that. Paid advertising, like on FB, Bookbub, Twitter or whatever might be $0. Or £0. I've been told by several people that if you want that sort of ad spend, or if you want a publicist in the modern industry, expect to pay yourself.

Then you have to ask yourself, how much do those folks actually help? It's a long conversation, and I don't know all the nitty gritty, and successful authors don't necessarily tell all, nor could they, since every book is going to be different. That said, a couple of authors I've spoken to have never hired a publicist, and make a lot of money having perfected Amazon ads by themselves. However, those tend to be people who hit the Gold Rush era of Amazon ads.

I could babble on, but gotta run.

Omg what, you should move over to the UK. Wearing a mask isn't a thing anymore. I know it's still pretty polarised (you guys manage to make everything polarised, idek how). It's a shame that closes conversations for you.

Do you know roughly how much money they will spend on marketing? I'm not worried about how I will get funds to do this myself if need be. Spend money to make money, and I'm pretty happy to back up what I've been creating for over half a decade with a lot of buck! Or what's the point, right?

 

[pmmg]

People are crazy and sometimes they get in charge. Avoidance is the most sane option.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I was go trad or go home for most of my life. My author mom taught me the business. I was writing query letters for her when I was twelve. So, I was raised with that idea that only through traditional publishing could I gain validation for all my hard work.

And then my writing partners said two words that completely changed my course. "Creative control." My team went indie and we haven't looked back. We might eventually go hybrid, but that's still several years out. But now, boy, do we have some of the prettiest covers and the internal formatting is gorgeous. And we're beholden to no one but the readers, and there only sort of. We wanted to tell the stories that don't often get told, and then often only in the dark corners of publication. We write on the edge a lot of the time, our characters reflect an urban setting, being Urban Fantasy, so we have a lot of characters of color, various gender identities and persuasions, and we have disabled characters. Lots of mental health issues, fair bit of drug use. And then there's the polyamory. I just don't trust a traditional publisher to give us free reign. I don't want a publisher to decide the series isn't making enough fast enough, or that they don't like our LGBTQ+ characters, and characters of color, or our disabled characters, and so it gets cancelled. But no, as an indie the only gatekeepers are on my team, and it's solely our choices which guide us to success.

Investigate each option closely. There are benefits to both, and drawbacks. As indies, we get a higher percentage of the profits, but we're also on the hook for everything: covers, formatting (both ebook and hardcopy), advertising, editing (both copyediting and developmental editing), and all of our own marketing outside of ads: joining writer and reader groups, interacting with readers, choosing the webpages and aesthetic that will work best with your series, and spreading the word that your books are available.

Traditional is slightly different. Traditional publishers can get you into bookstores and libraries, but so can you. They do front much of the initial costs, but you have no control over your cover or the final edits. You have no control over any of this. And then they dump the rest of the project on you and you do your own marketing, just like an indie, except the publishing house often has opinions on what you post and can make you change things. You do get money as an advance, but advances have been shrinking since 2008, when publishers reduced them at the onset of that recession and then simply never raised them again. A contract for a single book might earn you a $5k advance... maybe. Everything else is in your hands.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Indie is certainly the way to go for control freaks... ::raises his hand::

I've had publicists balk at the term halfbreed on the cover and using the word rape without a trigger warning, and the book after my next will no doubt be interpreted by modern politics even though the plot was set up in books released before Covid and, well, ten years of planning before that, and I have NO doubt they'd piss their pants at the sight of mass quarantines and political upheaval, LMAO.

That could be an interesting ride. Or, no one might care... I know that's not true, even a brief comment on that book raises eyebrows. Real-world politics are so annoying.

I was go trad or go home for most of my life. My author mom taught me the business. I was writing query letters for her when I was twelve. So, I was raised with that idea that only through traditional publishing could I gain validation for all my hard work.

And then my writing partners said two words that completely changed my course. "Creative control." My team went indie and we haven't looked back. We might eventually go hybrid, but that's still several years out. But now, boy, do we have some of the prettiest covers and the internal formatting is gorgeous. And we're beholden to no one but the readers, and there only sort of. We wanted to tell the stories that don't often get told, and then often only in the dark corners of publication. We write on the edge a lot of the time, our characters reflect an urban setting, being Urban Fantasy, so we have a lot of characters of color, various gender identities and persuasions, and we have disabled characters. Lots of mental health issues, fair bit of drug use. And then there's the polyamory. I just don't trust a traditional publisher to give us free reign. I don't want a publisher to decide the series isn't making enough fast enough, or that they don't like our LGBTQ+ characters, and characters of color, or our disabled characters, and so it gets cancelled. But no, as an indie the only gatekeepers are on my team, and it's solely our choices which guide us to success.

Investigate each option closely. There are benefits to both, and drawbacks. As indies, we get a higher percentage of the profits, but we're also on the hook for everything: covers, formatting (both ebook and hardcopy), advertising, editing (both copyediting and developmental editing), and all of our own marketing outside of ads: joining writer and reader groups, interacting with readers, choosing the webpages and aesthetic that will work best with your series, and spreading the word that your books are available.

Traditional is slightly different. Traditional publishers can get you into bookstores and libraries, but so can you. They do front much of the initial costs, but you have no control over your cover or the final edits. You have no control over any of this. And then they dump the rest of the project on you and you do your own marketing, just like an indie, except the publishing house often has opinions on what you post and can make you change things. You do get money as an advance, but advances have been shrinking since 2008, when publishers reduced them at the onset of that recession and then simply never raised them again. A contract for a single book might earn you a $5k advance... maybe. Everything else is in your hands.